Brexit, for once some facts.

[trex]

of course it's better if we could have our own way, trade and stay independent, we can share and participate to some of the goals of the EU through cooperation without swallowing the rest. I am not against paying access fees, they would be relatively modest anyway and probably much less than our current net contribution to the EU. However, I think that Brexiters don't have to paint the EU as a failure, which is untrue, and deny there is a fairly substantial cost to leave in terms of economic re-orientation cost because there is and deny the net contribution from EU workers because it's true.
It's better that voters realize that the shock to the stock market, the Pound, the interest rise will be all real and imminent so they are suitably prepared when they vote.

 

[oldgroaner]

of course it's better if we could have our own way, trade and stay independent, we can share and participate to some of the goals of the EU through cooperation without swallowing the rest. I am not against paying access fees, they would be relatively modest anyway and probably much less than our current net contribution to the EU. However, I think that Brexiters don't have to paint the EU as a failure, which is untrue, and deny there is a fairly substantial cost to leave in terms of economic re-orientation cost because there is and deny the net contribution from EU workers because it's true.
It's better that voters realize that the shock to the stock market, the Pound, the interest rise will be all real and imminent so they are suitably prepared when they vote.

The real shock will be the steps the UK government takes what it regards as essential defence of the Profit Margin of business, and the damage done to our rights and standard of living in the process.
And that applies to any Government left or right.
We are simply likely to lose the social progress made in a generation overnight, for no good reason except fear and jealousy over immigration, that has been exploited exaggerated , and used as propaganda by the three main enemies of the country, the press ,the Conservative Party, and UKIP.

 

[gray198]

of course it's better if we could have our own way, trade and stay independent, we can share and participate to some of the goals of the EU through cooperation without swallowing the rest. I am not against paying access fees, they would be relatively modest anyway and probably much less than our current net contribution to the EU. However, I think that Brexiters don't have to paint the EU as a failure, which is untrue, and deny there is a fairly substantial cost to leave in terms of economic re-orientation cost because there is and deny the net contribution from EU workers because it's true.
It's better that voters realize that the shock to the stock market, the Pound, the interest rise will be all real and imminent so they are suitably prepared when they vote.

The problem is T-Rex that we have been fed so many lies and so much bs by the politicians and so called experts that nobody believes them anymore. And I don't just with regards to the referendum. I think they are starting to panic now because it seems to be swinging towards leave winning. So they are no doubt going to step up their efforts to scare us. It may well be that at the last minute a lot of people will bottle it and go for the safe option, but I have a feeling that many people have already decided and won't change.Saw that a recent poll gives Brexiters a ten point lead. Of course we all know how inaccurate polls can be. As an aside it seems that a lot of people who have put their weight behind remain are receiving gongs in the honours list. Coincidence????.

 

[trex]

I'd take the 10 point lead with a very large pinch of salt. It seems to me that poll is a con trick by the pollsters to get themselves more work. A sudden movement? more polls are needed.

 

[gray198]

The real shock will be the steps the UK government takes what it regards as essential defence of the Profit Margin of business, and the damage done to our rights and standard of living in the process.
And that applies to any Government left or right.
We are simply likely to lose the social progress made in a generation overnight, for no good reason except fear and jealousy over immigration, that has been exploited exaggerated , and used as propaganda by the three main enemies of the country, the press ,the Conservative Party, and UKIP.

If we leave the main problem will be the calibre of the people who are negotiating on our behalf. Unfortunately over recent years the standard of people running the country has not been impressive.

 

[trex]

what voters should worry about is the Pound in their pocket and the value of their assets. Those are the first to be hit. Austerity, inflation and interest rate rise following Brexit are very real. Brexiters say because nobody knows so it won't happen or it does not matter, that's misleading.
Remainers should really stop banging on about trade barriers and should concentrate instead on austerity. Voters understand budget cuts but not trade deals.

 

[oldgroaner]

If we leave the main problem will be the calibre of the people who are negotiating on our behalf. Unfortunately over recent years the standard of people running the country has not been impressive.

And this is true too of investors, Bankers, and the quality of British Management too, the main success of which has been to open up a huge gulf in income between them and the workforce, despite them being an unmitigated failure at work, and in many cases of dubious honesty.
Hence the appearance of huge bonuses where really they should have been facing financial penalties for failure, and the public have had to foot the bill.
And now we are expected to trust this sordid bunch of failures and scoundrels to deal competently with a far more difficult and complex set of issues outside the EU?
I expect a Brexit win, for as Einstein Famously remarked.
"Only two things are certain in life
Death and Human Stupidity
Though on reflection, I am not certain about Death."
And another of his remarks was
"Stupidity is repeating an experiment and expecting a different result"
We tried making a go of it before and ended up in the hands of the IMF, then realised the mistake and did much better after entering the EU, remember?
Here we go again, why should the result of this experiment be any different?

 

[trex]

I think on balance of probability, we are going to remain.

 

[tillson]

I think on balance of probability, we are going to remain.

I guess the, "feeling" as to whether we will remain or quit is different in each area of the country. I see about a ratio of 10:1 posters in favour of leaving the EU and when out and about, overhearing people's conversations, they nearly all seem anti EU. The same in my work place, a very big majority are anti EU. So the, "vibe" around here is very much that we shall be leaving. But of course, I suspect that it will be the opposite in other areas.

As an aside, just watching the Queen's birthday celebrations. No other country can can produce such a marvellous and spectacular ceremony as the UK. Looking forward to seeing the Red Arrows fly over and hopefully the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight. We have a lot to be proud of in the UK and we should preserve it.

 

[trex]

I think while it's easy to explain why we should leave it's very difficult to explain to the average person in the street why we should remain.
People do not care enough for EU utopian goals, they don't understand the link between access to market, inflation and tax receipt. The key economic reason to remain is the long range beneficial effects of low inflation inside the EU on living standard. Would you believe me if I said the Germans and the French although earn less than we do and pay more tax than we do, yet live better than we do because of the stability of their common currency?

 

[tillson]

I think you underestimate people. A dismissive attitude insinuating that people are too thick to understand why we should remain, helps the Exit campaign.

All I've seen in the live TV debates, particularly the one on ITV, is screeching, threats and personal insults from the In campaign. At least Johnson, Leadsom and Stuart conducted themselves with dignity and actually gave answers to the audience questions. This could be why Exit is gathering pace and looking more likely by the day.

Remain need to start explaining how they will address most people's concerns, Imigration, Political Interference etc whilst being a member of the EU.

 

[trex]

Tillson, I am not being dismissive of the man in the street. I can see why the remain camp try to frighten people because they can't explain why if our access to the market (not just EU but all other markets with which the EU have agreements) is disrupted/impeded, price in the shop is going to rise, tax receipt going to fall, the Pound will be weaker, the BoE will have to put up interest rate, banks put up the mortgage rate and builders can't borrow as much to build new houses or we have to curb imports because we can no longer balance our current account. It's just too complicated to explain in the 40 second slot in ITV debates. It's much easier to explain that if our fishermen can fish freely then their life will be better or if we stop sending money to Brussels then there is more to spend on our services. If I were Osborne, I'd go on TV to say that I will have to present an emergency budget in case the country vote to leave. That will get the journalists switch to the economy.
Remain has to trust the people, stop exagerating things like £4,300 loss per household in 2020 or 2030, and take the fist fight to Boris. Tell people clearly that immediately after if Brexit wins, there won't be enough foreign money to cover our endemic trade deficit and that taxes will have to go up, especially for the rich. People will understand that OK, especially the rich people who currently intend on voting to leave. Currently, the outflow of foreign money is about £60 billion - £70 billion a month.

http://news.sky.com/story/1708865/is-money-leaving-the-uk-due-to-brexit-fears

 

[flecc]

Remain need to start explaining how they will address most people's concerns, Imigration, Political Interference etc whilst being a member of the EU.

All Remain need to do is to repeat what I posted on this link.

Not scaremongering, just the true risk of leaving based on undeniable historical fact, plus the implications of successfully selling to the rest of the world.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

I think you underestimate people. A dismissive attitude insinuating that people are too thick to understand why we should remain, helps the Exit campaign.

All I've seen in the live TV debates, particularly the one on ITV, is screeching, threats and personal insults from the In campaign. At least Johnson, Leadsom and Stuart conducted themselves with dignity and actually gave answers to the audience questions. This could be why Exit is gathering pace and looking more likely by the day.

Remain need to start explaining how they will address most people's concerns, Imigration, Political Interference etc whilst being a member of the EU.

How are they going to make any changes that effect immigration when they have been all for it for years as essential to the countries economy?
And just what political interference are you referring to exactly? not the easily disprovable nonsense from Gove that his hands were tied on excluding and ejecting foreign criminals? he has had that power all along under EU free movement rules
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2016/mar/29/eu-dangerous-criminals-allowed-free-entry-uk-vote-leave-claims
It's not the fault of the EU that we have an imbecile in his position, who doesn't even know what he is empowered to do.
Sorry but this notion of political interference has usually resulted in legislation that has proved an advantage to the British public, not the reverse as claimed by the Brexit mob.
Which is why it gets the backs up of the powers that be here, who prefer to abuse the public in the name of profit.
As to the Brexit politicians acting with grace and dignity, both of those things are essential weapons in your repertoire if you aspire to operate as a high class con man, particularly when you haven't really got even the beginning of a good idea to sell.

 

[oldgroaner]

If I may make a comment on the way that all of us on both sides have been approached by the champions of both causes it is this.
"Never in the field of Human politics has so much misleading information been presented with wilful intent, to so many by so few"
Does anyone else feel that way?

 

[oldgroaner]

This reflects the public perception about our relations to the EU
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

And this is the reason I am expecting a Brexit victory.
"You can fool all of the people some of the time,
And some of the people all of the time,
But in the case of the UK voting public,a large majority
any time Big money tells the papers, Media and con artist politicians to do so.

Vote how your conscience dictates, but please only after you have assured yourself you know as many facts as you can check, otherwise the fate of the country may as well be decided by the toss of a coin.

 

[Fordulike]

One thing's for certain if we leave the EU. I'm gonna treat myself to a nice 3000 watt vacuum cleaner

 

[trex]

it seems that participation is going to be in the high 60s with as much as 30% of voters still undecided. That will give remain a late lift because undecided voters are more influenced by the economic impact of Brexit, especially in London.
Although I am in favour of dropping the triple lock on state pension but feel that Cameron is wrong to frighten pensioners yesterday with it though.

 

[flecc]

One thing's for certain if we leave the EU. I'm gonna treat myself to a nice 3000 watt vacuum cleaner

Don't do that. Until recently I had a 2000 watt one, but had to run it most of the time with its power turned down over a third to stop it lifting up carpets, carpet tiles, edgings etc. It was just far too powerful.

Eventually it committed suicide with a spectacular bang and flash!
.

 

[gray198]

it seems that participation is going to be in the high 60s with as much as 30% of voters still undecided. That will give remain a late lift because undecided voters are more influenced by the economic impact of Brexit, especially in London.
Although I am in favour of dropping the triple lock on state pension but feel that Cameron is wrong to frighten pensioners yesterday with it though.

Notice he has threatened cuts to pensions, health service,defence etc but not said a word about foreign aid???. Just shows that he puts the interests of others above UK citizens