Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

The problem is Flec, vote yes and their will be no reform, just the same old, and a steady drive for political integration against the wishes or the concerns of its Citizens. and a steady rise of fascist voices from both the left and right. An organisation like a tree must bend and reform or break
A vote no, may speed the demise of the union but as is often the case such processes have to reach the brink to make the necessary changes.
I personally do not believe the step by step from within is going to work and I do not want to see erosion of democracy on the say of bureacrats.
Britain has led Europe in the past, now is the moment again and courage and leadership as allways is required
In the past if Britain had not stood up to tyranny who would have?

first of all you have to accept that tyranny is in fact happening (it isn't) as The EU parliament is more democratic than our own .
The idea that Britain has "led" Europe in the past is nonsense as for most of that time we have either been at war with one or other European nation, or setting a very bad example for others to follow.
It was only in the times when we formed alliances with other European nations that we actually achieved positive results.
On our own we were and are powerless.
And frankly if Brexit is successful we will be just a backward offshore island of little interest to anyone.
You can only reform a parliament by being part of it, if we come out they will simply ignore us and carry on with some relief we have gone.
Brexit isn't an act of courage, but a case of shooting ourselves in both feet because we don't have the intelligence to see when we are well off, and act as if all will be well when even a moments thought should have warned us otherwise.

 

[derf]

the market factors in the risk at any time and deprecates the strength of the Pound accordingly. After Obama's visit, remain had the upper hand, £1 is worth roughly $1.47, currently, leave has the upperhand, £1 = $1.43. The market view is the price inflation if leave wins is about 3%. That's £3,000 extra mortgage payment on £100k mortgage. The BoE have already revealed that they have prepared plans to stabilize our GDP by increasing interest rate in case leave wins. I believe that this country can't be at peace with itself if the leave camp never has a chance to put money where their mouth is. I am all for higher interest rate so that outcome does not bother me.

yes, if the market was a rational, all-seeing empirical/scientific animal teh first part of what you say woudl be true. Unfortunately it's not (it's a bunch of very human self serving creatures known as investors who behave completely irrationally much of the time). In south africa th epowers that be also thoughtthemarket woudl shrug off the appointment of a pre-owned minister of finance - instead there was a wholesale run on the Rand that only ended when he was rapidly removed by Zuma. frankly i also disagree with the second part - i'm all for the leave/brexit camp putting their money where their mouth is - teh problem is their putting everyone (including the next two generations of british born citizens) money where theyre (incinsere if boris and completely mad, zenophobic if farage) mouth's are. if you pardon the somewhat extreme hyperbole, it feels a bit like saying hitler should try out his foreign policy to see whetehr lebensraum is a good idea.

 

[trex]

it's been discussed on BBC2 this morning the possibility of a (pro EU) goverment in 2018 calling a second referendum. This time with the Brexit cost known, if there are hundreds of thousand job losses, then people would change their votes. Both sides seem to accept that possibility.

 

[flecc]

The problem is Flec, vote yes and their will be no reform, just the same old, and a steady drive for political integration against the wishes or the concerns of its Citizens.

My problem is that I want full political integration into a large country called Europe, and that makes my position very different on many of the issues that objectors have.
.

 

[BrendanJ]

first of all you have to accept that tyranny is in fact happening (it isn't) as The EU parliament is more democratic than our own .
The idea that Britain has "led" Europe in the past is nonsense as for most of that time we have either been at war with one or other European nation, or setting a very bad example for others to follow.
It was only in the times when we formed alliances with other European nations that we actually achieved positive results.
On our own we were and are powerless.
And frankly if Brexit is successful we will be just a backward offshore island of little interest to anyone.
You can only reform a parliament by being part of it, if we come out they will simply ignore us and carry on with some relief we have gone.
Brexit isn't an act of courage, but a case of shooting ourselves in both feet because we don't have the intelligence to see when we are well off, and act as if all will be well when even a moments thought should have warned us otherwise.

I fail to see how you can claim the EU is more democratic than our own.
The reality is 28 countries in theory vote on issues, we have one vote so whoever we are we are allways hostage to the majority which due to the very diversity of Europe can never agree on anything so down to horse trading , lobbying and big business interests. This is why the big important issues can never be addressed. It is hard to see also that this structure is really accountable to Joe in the street
On the other hand the bureaucratic structures seem very good at pushing forward their agenda with complete freedom.
I am sure you may quote the details that say differently in the precise processes but the reality is that is what we get.
On the rest of your comments I disagree but of course I agree to disagree

 

[BrendanJ]

it's been discussed on BBC2 this morning the possibility of a (pro EU) goverment in 2018 calling a second referendum. This time with the Brexit cost known, if there are hundreds of thousand job losses, then people would change their votes. Both sides seem to accept that possibility.

Not really surprised. Despite Camerons denials that this would take place it is entirely logical that once rejected we will all be around the negotiating table and thank god a British voice would have been heard. Then it would be down to a proper negotiation. Do you think Cameron and his duplicity is capable of that?

 

[flecc]

The reality is 28 countries in theory vote on issues, we have one vote so whoever we are we are allways hostage to the majority which due to the very diversity of Europe can never agree on anything so down to horse trading , lobbying and big business interests. This is why the big important issues can never be addressed. It is hard to see also that this structure is really accountable to Joe in the street

Very much like our parliament in so many ways. The reality is that both are forms of elective dictatorship, removed from our control to varying degrees.

The fact that the Scots and Welsh felt so disenfranchised that they constantly demanded and got their own legislatures is indication enough of the failings of the British parliament. And there are many in England who want the same for the same reasons.

A parish council is the most democratic, the control of a union of hundreds of millions the least, but it's the latter that has the most potential to achieve and protect. We have to choose where we want to be along that scale, and for me it's the largest unit.
.

 

[BrendanJ]

My problem is that I want full political integration into a large country called Europe, and that makes my position very different on many of the issues that objectors have.
.

So what you mean, which I respect is that you have already decided you want Europe even as it is. My stance is that it is currently not good enough, will not survive as it is and will cause further pain downstream for all its Citizens.
I have no intrinsic issue with a unified Europe but it has to be workable for the majority, and run for the majority and not just by and for the elites
Which requires reform, which requires an open and honest debate and a road map for the future
We have never had that in the UK, just lies and they continue still
Whats that quote "You want the truth, you cannot afford the truth"

 

[flecc]

We have never had that in the UK, just lies and they continue still

I agree, it was apparent at the time of the 1975 referendum that deceit was being practised in describing the EU project as a common market. Because I favoured the real objective I was aware of it, so voted for continuing membership. But there's no doubt that most of the British public voted then in ignorance of the target of union.

That was wrong, but whether the truth would have brought a different result then is open to question. In today's situation with hindsight the answer to that is yes of course, but back then in cold war times it might have made little difference.
.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I don't think you have to be part of a country / organisation to be united with it.
I cant think of many issues where for better or ( usually worse) we have not stood united with USA.
To my mind I simply dont want uk to be part of and linked to a failing united Europe, which in my opinion it is. Yes we would have problems bit being part of eu , but still united with it.
If EU was so successful we simply would not be having this debate, and again unfortunately our image of EU as portrayed in media is a best unreliable either way. My view of eu is based on my own findings , having lived and worked in it for extended time. Yes, we hear either extreme,the good and the bad.
Brendan makes some excellent points.

I also see democracy in a " nation ?" of 750 kk plus people speaking countless languages with such different socio economic backgrounds within Europe as being completely unworkable.
Take a tiny example of approaching an MEP about an issue and then imagine process of getting that issue resolved via Brussels??? It simply cant work.
We struggle to get representation now let alone in 20 years time with power centralising toward mid Europe.

 

[flecc]

I don't think you have to be part of a country / organisation to be united with it.
I cant think of many issues where for better or ( usually worse) we have not stood united with USA.

But the USA has almost 325 million population. If we are happy with a country of that population, why should the size of a 508 million EU population be a problem?

I don't accept the language difference as counting, English being so widely spoken and being the language of both business and the internet.
.

 

[BrendanJ]

But the USA has almost 325 million population. If we are happy with a country of that population, why should the size of a 508 million EU population be a problem?

I don't accept the language difference as counting, English being so widely spoken and being the language of both business and the internet.
.

Sorry Flec, this is not about language, it's about culture, history and circumstances, poor or rich, industrious or agriculture, democratic or ex eastern block, net contributor or beneficiary, even religious grounds
It is pretty challenging to expect consensus on any decision on those grounds
The US did it but it took a civil war and forced conformance and still it is hardly the democratic model I would recommend to my children

 

[oldgroaner]

I fail to see how you can claim the EU is more democratic than our own.
The reality is 28 countries in theory vote on issues, we have one vote so whoever we are we are allways hostage to the majority which due to the very diversity of Europe can never agree on anything so down to horse trading , lobbying and big business interests. This is why the big important issues can never be addressed. It is hard to see also that this structure is really accountable to Joe in the street
On the other hand the bureaucratic structures seem very good at pushing forward their agenda with complete freedom.
I am sure you may quote the details that say differently in the precise processes but the reality is that is what we get.
On the rest of your comments I disagree but of course I agree to disagree

Perhaps you should go on the EU Government website and learn the facts; we do not have only one vote, every one of out MEP's has a vote, and how does that differ from Mp's at Westminster?
As to being "Hostage to the Majority" that is essentially how democracy operates, tell me how do you think it operates here that is different?
But what you have written demonstrates the incorrect assumptions being made by fans of Brexit.
Do you think our MEps all sit together in the EU parliament? is that what you think happens?
Please do little research before making comments about an organisation whos operational methods you clearly have not bothered to check on, merely read the biassed right wing press version of reality.
And it is accountable to "Joe in the street" in precisely the way UK Mp's are, as YOU vote them into office.
By all means disagree, but really do try to check the so called "Facts" the press have fed you.

 

[oldgroaner]

O

Sorry Flec, this is not about language, it's about culture, history and circumstances, poor or rich, industrious or agriculture, democratic or ex eastern block, net contributor or beneficiary, even religious grounds
It is pretty challenging to expect consensus on any decision on those grounds
The US did it but it took a civil war and forced conformance and still it is hardly the democratic model I would recommend to my children

And precisely what democratic model would you recommend to them?

 

[D8ve]

Come now oldgroaner. The next thing you will be suggesting that being a poodle Is not a full and fair partnership.
Remember we gave the yanks all our info on nukes and helped them develop the system then they felt it wasn't right to give us the details back after it was done.
After all we are the 54 state

 

[oldgroaner]

So what you mean, which I respect is that you have already decided you want Europe even as it is. My stance is that it is currently not good enough, will not survive as it is and will cause further pain downstream for all its Citizens.
I have no intrinsic issue with a unified Europe but it has to be workable for the majority, and run for the majority and not just by and for the elites
Which requires reform, which requires an open and honest debate and a road map for the future
We have never had that in the UK, just lies and they continue still
Whats that quote "You want the truth, you cannot afford the truth"

So despite the fact that the EU is a democratic organisation you would disconnect from it to become an insular little offshore island that fits you disparaging remarks on Europe perfectly?
Are you alleging that this country is run for the majority by having elitist Governments elected by a minority,and for a generation has been a de facto one party state in all but name?
How very, very odd.

 

[BrendanJ]

Perhaps you should go on the EU Government website and learn the facts; we do not have only one vote, every one of out MEP's has a vote, and how does that differ from Mp's at Westminster?
As to being "Hostage to the Majority" that is essentially how democracy operates, tell me how do you think it operates here that is different?
But what you have written demonstrates the incorrect assumptions being made by fans of Brexit.
Do you think our MEps all sit together in the EU parliament? is that what you think happens?
Please do little research before making comments about an organisation whos operational methods you clearly have not bothered to check on, merely read the biassed right wing press version of reality.
And it is accountable to "Joe in the street" in precisely the way UK Mp's are, as YOU vote them into office.
By all means disagree, but really do try to check the so called "Facts" the press have fed you.

The results are the results.
The processes may in theory be one way, but the result is another
You clearly know who your MEP is , but most do not
The British public is disengaged from Europe, and I can understand why,
If the vote goes to stay in, it will be for one reason only, fear and conservatism with a big C which Cameron is clearly trying to exploit
Over courage and ambition, and a sense of justice
Make your minds up folks

 

[oldgroaner]

Come now oldgroaner. The next thing you will be suggesting that being a poodle Is not a full and fair partnership.
Remember we gave the yanks all our info on nukes and helped them develop the system then they felt it wasn't right to give us the details back after it was done.
After all we are the 54 state

You forgot to mention Ultra, Radar, and the jet engine, among other things, but I take your point.

 

[oldgroaner]

The results are the results.
The processes may in theory be one way, but the result is another
You clearly know who your MEP is , but most do not
The British public is disengaged from Europe, and I can understand why,
If the vote goes to stay in, it will be for one reason only, fear and conservatism with a big C which Cameron is clearly trying to exploit
Over courage and ambition, and a sense of justice
Make your minds up folks

Ah I see, the good old adage of "Don't bother me with facts. I've made my mind up?"
One could of course argue that turning the clock back ( despite the fact that is a retrogade step to disconnect with Europe and turn down a huge market, turning it into a massive competitor) is Courageous, rather like looking for a gas leak with a lit match is, and with very likely similar results.
Frankly it is not brave, just stupid.
And you expect to get justice from the British Government?
That has to be a jest, British Governments are not notorious for that are they?

 

[BrendanJ]

O

And precisely what democratic model would you recommend to them?

Frankly I would not try to impose one currency, one doctrine, one rule, and one size fits all onto such a diverse grouping, for purely political reasons
It needs more than that. And so far this is clearly absent,. The governments can't agree and the bureaucrats hide in the background full of vested interests and no accountability
Hey you will be calling me a revolutionary next!
By the way, why have you called your self old groaner?