Brexit, for once some facts.

[timidtom]

Not that long ago, on a Geological timescale at any rate, Britain was covered by a thick sheet of ice. The ice retreated and humans moved in - immigrants each and every one. According to DNA testing my gang arrived, from central Africa via France, Sweden and Ireland, about eight or nine hundred years ago. We're immigrants. About fifteen years ago an African friend of mine, a skilled engineer, applied to come and live in the UK. he was refused entry and went to live in Sweden with his family. His eldest daughter is now a fully qualified doctor and he's a university lecturer. Every day we appear to be turning away other 'migrants' who could be of equal value to 'our' nation. Crackers.
OK. Hands up every UK citizen who has lived here before/during the last Ice Age? No? No body?
Rant over. I'm going for a ride ...

 

[Croxden]

Not that long ago, on a Geological timescale at any rate, Britain was covered by a thick sheet of ice. The ice retreated and humans moved in - immigrants each and every one. According to DNA testing my gang arrived, from central Africa via France, Sweden and Ireland, about eight or nine hundred years ago. We're immigrants. About fifteen years ago an African friend of mine, a skilled engineer, applied to come and live in the UK. he was refused entry and went to live in Sweden with his family. His eldest daughter is now a fully qualified doctor and he's a university lecturer. Every day we appear to be turning away other 'migrants' who could be of equal value to 'our' nation. Crackers.
OK. Hands up every UK citizen who has lived here before/during the last Ice Age? No? No body?
Rant over. I'm going for a ride ...

Dejavu

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

This thread was supposed to be about facts. We,ve had everything from ice age migrants to Franco Prussian war, with common theme been UK is responsible for all bad and EU all the good.
Really think folk ate discrediting goid points with almost ludicrous ones..Yes UK has enjoyed economiic prosperity for a number of reasons, putting it down to Eu is laughable.
The culture issue, just drive through Europe. I,ve lived in South of France for 10 years,spent months in Greece and Canary Islands. We are not European, our nearest cousin is other side of Atlantic.
And all folk knocking what UK could and has achieved go live in France for a while and see if you still think same, and if eu is so good and uk so bad what you doing not . Certainly ain't weather keeping you, we have open borders at moment. Get off and see how great eu is on mainland.
Yes UK has its problems,they pale into insignificance at problems in vast swathes of eu. ( including all Spain,Greece, Italy,Portugal,what was East Germany) The French economy,especially housing, is dire.( try selling property in France)
Anybody who thinks eu is a panacea of success frankly hasn't travelled it.
I,,ve been, experienced it, been robbed in Spain twice,France once, and would not venture back to Barcelona for a pension. The whole of Northern Spain is littered with girls sat on white plastic chairs selling themselves to passing traffic. Cycling teams established themselves around Girona to take benefit of lax drug laws.( ask Lance.I have) The Greeks don't know what tax is, the Italians do but pay it to Mafia.(Many Italian ports are still mafia controlled,Google Ndrangetti) Then of course there is Portugal , which is way worse than a disgrace. Do research about why many go there.
That's the eu.Its a complete shambles.
We,ve enough problems to solve without being part of solving all eu,s massive problems.

 

[trex]

flud, I have a theory that speaking another language helps to appreciate the people who speak it. You said you lived 10 years in the South of France, do you speak their language?

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

flud, I have a theory that speaking another language helps to appreciate the people who speak it. You said you lived 10 years in the South of France, do you speak their language?

Couldn't really live there without but locals spoke a mixture of Catalan, Spanish and French with a very strong accent. It isn't school French.
By the way the locals were fantastic . Really friendly.
I think we have this image of eu where all is fine. It isn't. France, Spain ( which I know well) have social and economic problems far worse than ours. Geece , where I have spent a lot I time, is even worse. We should applaud and appreciate what we have in UK. If eu was so successful how come these places are in such a mess?
Just Google " youth unemployment Spain. Debt Portugal. Crime Italy.ITax Greece. I,m telling you its a complete mess.

 

[flecc]

common theme been UK is responsible for all bad and EU all the good. - - - - - Yes UK has enjoyed economiic prosperity for a number of reasons, putting it down to Eu is laughable.

This is not what we've posted, you are grossly distorting. We haven't said the UK all bad and the EU all good. What I and others have highlighted is the fact that the UK was increasingly failing prior to joining the EU.

Nor have we said our better performance now was down to EU membership. What we have said is that EU hasn't been preventing that success, just as it hasn't prevented the success of other successful countries.

And all folk knocking what UK could and has achieved go live in France for a while and see if you still think same

No-one has knocked what the UK has achieved, but I have asked you what those achievements are and got no answer. Nor have we knocked what the UK could achieve since we can't know that. What I have said is that our past trend into failure is an indicator for a poor future alone.

And I have lived and worked in France and was also a regular business visitor to Germany, both countries impressing me with many aspects of their cultures and societies.

Your posting in here only concentrating on every possible fault in the Union is revealing. Little wonder you could only see the negatives when in mainland Europe.
.

 

[trex]

flud, before joining the EU, southern European countries were much poorer than now. They have been net recipient of EU development funds for a very long time, and some still do. Their problems started with cheap loans since they joined the Eurozone. Money does not grow trees, people know that and still gorged on cheap loans. The whole of the Eurozone, not just Spaniards, Portuguese and Greeks, borrowed way too much to build properties left right and centre, so there was work for anyone who wanted to work. The problems with Greece started with the Olympics. Now the boot is on the other foot, their property market crashed, no construction jobs for millions. Back home, how much of our economy depends on the high price of properties? I guess a lot. So before we get high and mighty, we may, just may, be around the corner for a property crash if Brexit happens.

 

[oldgroaner]

Couldn't really live there without but locals spoke a mixture of Catalan, Spanish and French with a very strong accent. It isn't school French.
By the way the locals were fantastic . Really friendly.
I think we have this image of eu where all is fine. It isn't. France, Spain ( which I know well) have social and economic problems far worse than ours. Geece , where I have spent a lot I time, is even worse. We should applaud and appreciate what we have in UK. If eu was so successful how come these places are in such a mess?
Just Google " youth unemployment Spain. Debt Portugal. Crime Italy.ITax Greece. I,m telling you its a complete mess.

No we don't have an image that all is perfect in the EU, but perceive clearly that only by collective action will all member states benefit in time.
As we have pointed out we didn't join because we were doing well, but because we knew we needed to, and nothing has changed in that respect, has it?
Can you name anything at all that we have to really make it likely we will do better to have the entire continent in competition rather than co-operation?
By what logical process, when we have little industry, Science and arts are underfunded, our natural resources are nothing to write home about, we need to find and make a heck of a lot of New Markets and Customers overnight, and that using a political class that are inept amateurs when they make any effort at all to take action.
Pigs might fly!
Added to that we have a set of "News"Papers who are bought and sold by media moguls in the pay of the establishment that sway the non thinking section of the community with a continuous program of lies, distortion and false promises, and use "patriotism" as a propaganda weapon, when in fact even a simple check on their history will reveal they have fawned to the worst dictatorships and extreme regimes, and they still do.
And they have played Realpolitik games to inflame the public in favour of Aggressive wars aimed at nothing more than acquiring oil and selling weapons of destruction, and flooded us with refugees who are merely to them collateral damage.
And you want to hand over complete power to these people?
Talk about you will get the Government you deserve!

 

[trex]

I just did the Guardian's EU referendum test. The result: I am the average Guardian reader.
You should have a go, I recommend it:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2016/jun/02/eu-referendum-find-out-how-much-you-really-know

 

[timidtom]

I just did the Guardian's EU referendum test. The result: I am the average Guardian reader.
You should have a go, I recommend it:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2016/jun/02/eu-referendum-find-out-how-much-you-really-know

Agree - an interesting and instructive way of passing 5 minutes!
Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Agree - an interesting and instructive way of passing 5 minutes!
Tom

It makes you wonder whether it would be a good idea to make this a requirement for anyone who wants to vote in the referendum to have read and understood this first!
Instead of being led by the nose by an utterly biased press, with no other knowledge of the subject.

 

[Croxden]

I did quite well till half way, then I lost it. Same as life I suppose.

 

[trex]

I watched John Major calling the Leave campaign deceitful on Marr's show this morning. I am not bothered about what Johnson & Gove are saying on TV as much as what the dailies print on their front page everyday. What Major said is more applicable to the right wing press. The result of the referendum could well be decided by the Sun, the Mail, the Express and the Mirror.

 

[oldgroaner]

I watched John Major calling the Leave campaign deceitful on Marr's show this morning. I am not bothered about what Johnson & Gove are saying on TV as much as what the dailies print on their front page everyday. What Major said is more applicable to the right wing press. The result of the referendum could well be decided by the Sun, the Mail, the Express and the Mirror.

And the problem for the remain campaign is exactly that: the average person relies entirely on the information they supply even though it presents a completely biassed view of the situation.
I can't help but wonder what has caused so extreme a reaction, no doubt long after the event there will be a scandalous expose of the movers and fixers behind this situation.
But by then it will be too late.

 

[derf]

I watched John Major calling the Leave campaign deceitful on Marr's show this morning. I am not bothered about what Johnson & Gove are saying on TV as much as what the dailies print on their front page everyday. What Major said is more applicable to the right wing press. The result of the referendum could well be decided by the Sun, the Mail, the Express and the Mirror.

this is a semi tangent, but: as i was booking a european holiday last night i realised that teh pound is dipping again. it reminds me of what is happening in south africa: there public option (about seriously industrial scale government corruption) is - or was - contemptuously brushed aside by politicians in general. untill the markets stepped in and devalued the rand - spectacularly (it turned out investors dislike corruption for their own expedient reasons as much as the public do, for perhaps more moral ones). I supect that if the Brexit vote wins there will be simiialr economic carnage here, and a very rapid change of tune from politicans of all sides.

 

[trex]

the market factors in the risk at any time and deprecates the strength of the Pound accordingly. After Obama's visit, remain had the upper hand, £1 is worth roughly $1.47, currently, leave has the upperhand, £1 = $1.43. The market view is the price inflation if leave wins is about 3%. That's £3,000 extra mortgage payment on £100k mortgage. The BoE have already revealed that they have prepared plans to stabilize our GDP by increasing interest rate in case leave wins. I believe that this country can't be at peace with itself if the leave camp never has a chance to put money where their mouth is. I am all for higher interest rate so that outcome does not bother me.

 

[BrendanJ]

Despite the obvious reasons for denying it, I am quite sure that a vote for Brexit will prompt a rethink on many fronts and maybe kick start a debate in Europe about the kind of Europe we all want and the roadmap towards it, ie pragmatic policies that reflect the realities.
So don't be surprised if new offers are suddenly on the table and a process towards a referendum 2 become the next step.
At that point we have to stop just negotiating for measly crumbs for the UK, and start the bigger story about reform for the benefit of Europe overall.

Take migration as a for instance. it is clear that as a result of the stress lines within Europe economically and the lack of fiscal union and lack redistribution of cash from wealthier countries to poorer countries, this leaves citizens with no choice but to migrate. But this issue is left to the individual country to cope with, the pressure on resources, the social affects all in the name of the famous pillar of free movement.
Now I do not object to this as a goal, but to force it through without the rest of the pie in place is asking for trouble. Compromise is needed and a more staged process
So what could that look like?
- Firstly a recognition that you are a country citizen first and a European citizen 2nd, each has certain rights and obligations with it
- That free movement is recognised as a goal, but with agreed limits taking into account economic factors in the particular country concerned, which could be agreed and reviewed as integration progresses and economics become more even across states
- Support including all costs, healthcare, education, benefits etc are paid by the country that you are a citizen of, and this is a redistribution by the Centre on agreed basis.

Now I am sure someone will jump up and say why this is not workable, but the main point here is who is trying to find these compromises in Europe instead of just protesting this requires treaty change and against the EU principles.
One way lies progress to a reformed and better EU for all countries,
The other leads to breakdown as we are now seeing in the UK referendum. No negotiation (Camerons was a joke), just decide in or out
I for one faced with such intransigence from anyone trying to sell me anything, would lead me to say "Thanks but no thanks"

This is the basic issue that our and European politicians have got to solve, and if they cant or wont then the institution is not fit for purpose and defaults in affect to an undemocratic dictatorship, by either the bureaucrat hiding in the back room, or the strongest man at the table (or woman???) each is unacceptable and is simply the consequence of failure

 

[trex]

that plan is workable if we have a EU wide national insurance scheme.
A minimum level of security net is assumed by the EU, ie the EU would pay out JSA to all unemployed citizens.

 

[flecc]

I agree with Trex, your plan Brendan could work with some added protections. I also agree with many of the points you make and am well aware of the EU shortcomings. But I'm very reluctant to vote us out and lose sight of the EU's most desirable objectives, since leaving will harm the Union and possibly prompt more departures.

A return to Europe past is the last thing any of us want.
.

 

[BrendanJ]

I agree with Trex, your plan Brendan could work with some added protections. I also agree with many of the points you make and am well aware of the EU shortcomings. But I'm very reluctant to vote us out and lose sight of the EU's most desirable objectives, since leaving will harm the Union and possibly prompt more departures.

A return to Europe past is the last thing any of us want.
.

The problem is Flec, vote yes and their will be no reform, just the same old, and a steady drive for political integration against the wishes or the concerns of its Citizens. and a steady rise of fascist voices from both the left and right. An organisation like a tree must bend and reform or break
A vote no, may speed the demise of the union but as is often the case such processes have to reach the brink to make the necessary changes.
I personally do not believe the step by step from within is going to work and I do not want to see erosion of democracy on the say of bureacrats.
Britain has led Europe in the past, now is the moment again and courage and leadership as allways is required
In the past if Britain had not stood up to tyranny who would have?