Brexit, for once some facts.

[Kudoscycles]

Over the weekend Fox and Hammond agreed to a truce and agreed that they would have a transition arrangement lasting 2 years,they wrote an open letter in the Times,this morning Davis enlarged on this arrangement as the ambitious UK-EU customs union,I think Fox thought he could start doing free trade deals from March 2019,I remarked I couldn't see that likely.
Liam Fox has realised,the obvious,that he is not going to be able to agree free trade deals until minimum 2 years after so he has got together with Boris and wants the transition to last maximum 1 year or less,surely he should have done his homework before the letter.
How can this useless government expect Davis to achieve any sort of deal when they can't avoid in cabinet fighting,Leavers or Remainers must agree that this is a pathetic government.
David's customs union idea has fallen apart before the paper is read.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

I still think in ten years we will see the benefits clear as day.

Unfortunately by that time the Elite will have been off over the Horizon with the "Benefits" you are expecting secreted into their offshore accounts.
You simply haven't learned a thing have you?
Still believing in Fairy stories

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Telegraph this morning
"
‘‘Fascism is not Conservatism, and conservatives must make that clear’’


That's new, that they finally realise they have been rumbled by the Public and feel they have to deny it

 

[oldgroaner]

And from the Express
"
Project Fear MOCKED: May unveils frictionless Irish border plans for after Brexit
UK Government will make a mockery of Project Fear by today unveiling a blueprint to keep a frictionless border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, ensuring that the peace process continues.

Desperation is setting in if they imagine it matters what May plans to do!

 

[OxygenJames]

Colin (KTM) and I would find it interesting as to what you see in 10 years time that some of us are missing?
KudosDave

Well Dave. There's so many places one could start. Let's do an easy one right off: balancing out of the economy. Right now there is a massive North South problem as well as an over-reliance on financial services.

On the financial services side one possible effect of Brexit is that some of the big names in financial services may move jobs to the continent to ensure free access to the Single Market. This effect will probably be rather limited. London has too many competitive advantages to cease being a world-leading financial centre, though it seems plausible a small percentage of jobs may move to Paris or Frankfurt.

The large drop in the value of the pound has already helped as manufacturers report higher volumes and confidence - pretty much across the board - another 5% off would help but the pound is now within what the IMF says it should be trading (rather than being valued way too high in the IMF's opinion before the vote).

But there are a number of other ways the UK economy can move onto a stronger footing post Brexit. The introduction of free ports – effectively impossible while within the Customs Union – could greatly benefit the UK’s port towns. A good portion of these towns are located in the North and in areas of relative poverty. Most are also outside the congested and already economic developed area of the South East.

Free ports would go a long way towards addressing the double-headed inequity of a bias towards services in the UK economy and the North-South divide. UK ports are some of the world’s most advanced, and with countries queueing up to sign trade deals with us after Brexit, this could be a major source of extra economic growth.

There is also the likelihood that the UK fishing industry will start to grow strongly, given the right policy from Government, when we leave the Common Fisheries Policy. Again, the towns and cities ripe to reap the rewards of this are located in relatively poorer areas, far from the South East of the UK.

Like I said - I think this will all take some considerable time to play out in the numbers - but there is much reason to be optimistic if one can look at things with an open mind.

 

[oldgroaner]

Well Dave. There's so many places one could start. Let's do an easy one right off: balancing out of the economy. Right now there is a massive North South problem as well as an over-reliance on financial services.

On the financial services side one possible effect of Brexit is that some of the big names in financial services may move jobs to the continent to ensure free access to the Single Market. This effect will probably be rather limited. London has too many competitive advantages to cease being a world-leading financial centre, though it seems plausible a small percentage of jobs may move to Paris or Frankfurt.

The large drop in the value of the pound has already helped as manufacturers report higher volumes and confidence - pretty much across the board - another 5% off would help but the pound is now within what the IMF says it should be trading (rather than being valued way too high in the IMF's opinion before the vote).

But there are a number of other ways the UK economy can move onto a stronger footing post Brexit. The introduction of free ports – effectively impossible while within the Customs Union – could greatly benefit the UK’s port towns. A good portion of these towns are located in the North and in areas of relative poverty. Most are also outside the congested and already economic developed area of the South East.

Free ports would go a long way towards addressing the double-headed inequity of a bias towards services in the UK economy and the North-South divide. UK ports are some of the world’s most advanced, and with countries queueing up to sign trade deals with us after Brexit, this could be a major source of extra economic growth.

There is also the likelihood that the UK fishing industry will start to grow strongly, given the right policy from Government, when we leave the Common Fisheries Policy. Again, the towns and cities ripe to reap the rewards of this are located in relatively poorer areas, far from the South East of the UK.

Like I said - I think this will all take some considerable time to play out in the numbers - but there is much reason to be optimistic if one can look at things with an open mind.

Still selling a pipedream?
Here's a more accurate summation

1. The over reliance of Financial Services is due to the collapse of the industrial base and exploitation of Natural resources. Without markets neither of these will change as investments go to already established industrial nations, and just having cheap labour isn't enough inducement any more.
2. The Fishing industry needs an entire new fleet, and the small fish stocks of the North Sea don't justify the expenses, and won't support the population they used to anyway.
3. The sheer cost of controlling immigration is so high that the Government doesn't even use the powers it already has, nor has it the money or expertise to introduce the systems and staffing needed to make this a viable idea. They also lied in saying they had no control over EU citizens who cannot find work, as they have and other EU controls control them.
4. We should already be patrolling our shoreline, but instead disband the Coastguard and rely on the Coastwatch Charity to do it for nothing as to do otherwise is unaffordable. The cost of the necessary fleet of control boats is so high that that is the reason we don't do it now
5. The NHS will be sold off
6. Basically we are living on the Industrial Charity of others,who saw us as a Cheap labour area to exploit our membership of the EU and the smart money is already on the move to the mainland
7. On the grounds of alleged necessity draconian changes to the rights of the Public are not merely likely but under review now, which will inevitably lead to public unrest.

Where are the innovative politicians, industrialists and investors who are going to make your dream come true?
And more to the point Why should they, when there are better easy pickings to be had out there in both the EU and the Far East?

Are all Brexit fans utterly unrealistic about the Future?
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT.
Nobody is coming to rescue you from your own mistake.

The thing that destroys your argument completely is the simple fact that the Government and investors could have done all the things you suggest before this time.

They didn't, now why do you think that was?
Did the EU really control them so utterly? the same EU they say is toothless and ineffective?
Even on Fisheries the controls were ones we pushed for to protect fish stocks, have you forgotten that?
No the answer is either that they had no intention to do so, or were incompetent.

Why has Brexit changed that?
It hasn't has it? and no one actually can possibly believe otherwise.

 

[oldtom]

Where are the innovative politicians, industrialists and investors who are going to make your dream come true?
And more to the point Why should they, when there are better easy pickings to be had out there in both the EU and the Far East?

OG, you must be wrong! I'm absolutely certain that Dyson, Sugar, Branson, Bannatyne and the whole regular cast of 'Dragons' Den' will step in and invest their multi-billion pound collective fortunes in the huge and lucrative business opportunities which this government will open up to them.

Those clever people could easily divide ownership of the NHS between them and bring market forces to bear on that collapsing institution.....there are just so many opportunities ahead for those of an entrepreneurial bent.

As a native of a British seaport where fishing was once a major industry, I'm sure you must be delighted at the prospect of a resumption of industrial-scale trawler fishing in British waters which will extend as far as necessary to exclude all other nations......just like the old days!

The loss of tens of thousands of jobs when the Japanese carmakers and foreign banks exit the UK will be more than compensated by the new business opportunities that our 'Brexit' team have planned.

Do you realise just how many schoolchildren look forward to a career as a trawlerman....or woman?

I think you lack faith - you really need to place more trust in the upper class. Remember, they didn't make their fortunes and come to own all that land and property by sitting on their fat backsides while all the poor and needy did all the work for very little money.......oh wait! I really need to ponder a little more before I post ballcocks on an internet forum!

Tom

 

[Steb]

Well Dave. There's so many places one could start. Let's do an easy one right off: balancing out of the economy. Right now there is a massive North South problem as well as an over-reliance on financial services.

On the financial services side one possible effect of Brexit is that some of the big names in financial services may move jobs to the continent to ensure free access to the Single Market. This effect will probably be rather limited. London has too many competitive advantages to cease being a world-leading financial centre, though it seems plausible a small percentage of jobs may move to Paris or Frankfurt.

The large drop in the value of the pound has already helped as manufacturers report higher volumes and confidence - pretty much across the board - another 5% off would help but the pound is now within what the IMF says it should be trading (rather than being valued way too high in the IMF's opinion before the vote).

But there are a number of other ways the UK economy can move onto a stronger footing post Brexit. The introduction of free ports – effectively impossible while within the Customs Union – could greatly benefit the UK’s port towns. A good portion of these towns are located in the North and in areas of relative poverty. Most are also outside the congested and already economic developed area of the South East.

Free ports would go a long way towards addressing the double-headed inequity of a bias towards services in the UK economy and the North-South divide. UK ports are some of the world’s most advanced, and with countries queueing up to sign trade deals with us after Brexit, this could be a major source of extra economic growth.

There is also the likelihood that the UK fishing industry will start to grow strongly, given the right policy from Government, when we leave the Common Fisheries Policy. Again, the towns and cities ripe to reap the rewards of this are located in relatively poorer areas, far from the South East of the UK.

Like I said - I think this will all take some considerable time to play out in the numbers - but there is much reason to be optimistic if one can look at things with an open mind.

You mean we could become a second Norway? The snag is Norway has oil reserves second to Saudi Arabia, exporting that is key to its success as a small nation. OK, so we could become Sweden - export high quality goods produced by a skilled workforce? Let's remain positive about converting brexit voters into that, for arguments sake. Snag with that - check in Wikipedia - is vast majority of Swedish export goes to EU, which it joined in 95. Somehow I do not see any UK startup posing a threat to bafang, Nokia, volvo, etc etc. Car manufacturers will lead the way in leaving if there's hard brexit.

 

[Woosh]

brexit offers us a chance to re-assess our place in the world and our politics.
We are facing all the well known post wars issues: ageing population, increasing competition from other countries emerging from WW2 but suffering less damage than we did, the rise of education in previously less well educated countries, exhaustion of natural resources due to our early industrialisation and still having lots of old factories, based on small family businesses.
The EU hems us in. There aren't many ways to solve these issues within the current EU framework.

 

[oldgroaner]

The EU hems us in. There aren't many ways to solve these issues within the current EU framework.

Rot! outside of it we will drown in a mire of our own making through the standard mixture of greed , short termism and incompetence.

We went in for the very same reasons that will make us do the same again after we leave and realise what a huge mistake we have made.

By the logic you are expounding we may as well go back to the old Saxon Kingdoms in search of this illusory freedom.
Let's face it, no one here has the wit, the means, or the intention of Solving those problems, just of making a quick killing from the Public purse, and making off with the loot.

I rather liked that, Tom
"As a native of a British seaport where fishing was once a major industry, I'm sure you must be delighted at the prospect of a resumption of industrial-scale trawler fishing in British waters which will extend as far as necessary to exclude all other nations......just like the old days!"

Actually we didn't fish the North Sea, it wasn't worth bothering with, we used to fish the grounds off North Cape and Bear island, and left the North Sea scraps to the little local boats, not worth our time to put to sea for such small catches.
The fish we used to catch now come in from Iceland. And frankly we don't actually need locally caught fish anymore as we have learned to live without them.
There isn't a shortage, is there?

 

[Woosh]

Rot! outside of it we will drown in a mire of our own making through the standard mixture of greed , short termism and incompetence.

You don't know that, brexit hasn't happened yet.
inside of it, we have been slowly suffocating.
We are supposed to move to a knowledge economy. We are not going to achieve that from within.

 

[oldtom]

And frankly we don't actually need locally caught fish anymore as we have learned to live without them.
There isn't a shortage, is there?

Well, I was beginning to wonder when I had to wait for 15 minutes in my local 'chippy' after they ran out of both fish and chips in the front shop. The Chinese ownership soon had everything running tickety-boo though - I thought there were only three of them to run that shop but suddenly I discovered there is an army of them on standby somewhere in the back shop!

Tom

 

[Danidl]

You don't know that, brexit hasn't happened yet.
inside of it, we have been slowly suffocating.
We are supposed to move to a knowledge economy. We are not going to achieve that from within.

.. but other countries have not been suffocating. I am referring at present to France, where there does seem to be a lot of investment in infrastructure, and a lot of local participation in civic events.
It is difficult not to consider that there might be other factors at play if the UK feels smothered.
I have had some peripheral engagement with hi tech in French IUTs and other third level groups, and it seems to me, they are very au fait with the demands of a knowledge economy.

 

[OxygenJames]

Still selling a pipedream?
Here's a more accurate summation

1. The over reliance of Financial Services is due to the collapse of the industrial base and exploitation of Natural resources. Without markets neither of these will change as investments go to already established industrial nations, and just having cheap labour isn't enough inducement any more.
2. The Fishing industry needs an entire new fleet, and the small fish stocks of the North Sea don't justify the expenses, and won't support the population they used to anyway.
3. The sheer cost of controlling immigration is so high that the Government doesn't even use the powers it already has, nor has it the money or expertise to introduce the systems and staffing needed to make this a viable idea. They also lied in saying they had no control over EU citizens who cannot find work, as they have and other EU controls control them.
4. We should already be patrolling our shoreline, but instead disband the Coastguard and rely on the Coastwatch Charity to do it for nothing as to do otherwise is unaffordable. The cost of the necessary fleet of control boats is so high that that is the reason we don't do it now
5. The NHS will be sold off
6. Basically we are living on the Industrial Charity of others,who saw us as a Cheap labour area to exploit our membership of the EU and the smart money is already on the move to the mainland
7. On the grounds of alleged necessity draconian changes to the rights of the Public are not merely likely but under review now, which will inevitably lead to public unrest.

Where are the innovative politicians, industrialists and investors who are going to make your dream come true?
And more to the point Why should they, when there are better easy pickings to be had out there in both the EU and the Far East?

Are all Brexit fans utterly unrealistic about the Future?
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO BE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT.
Nobody is coming to rescue you from your own mistake.

The thing that destroys your argument completely is the simple fact that the Government and investors could have done all the things you suggest before this time.

They didn't, now why do you think that was?
Did the EU really control them so utterly? the same EU they say is toothless and ineffective?
Even on Fisheries the controls were ones we pushed for to protect fish stocks, have you forgotten that?
No the answer is either that they had no intention to do so, or were incompetent.

Why has Brexit changed that?
It hasn't has it? and no one actually can possibly believe otherwise.

Whatever Tom. The NHS will be sold off? Huh? You're just making this up as you go along. That negative attitude is how come you lost the referendum in the first place. One lonely old man drowning in his own bile. Good luck.

 

[Steb]

brexit offers us a chance to re-assess our place in the world and our politics.
We are facing all the well known post wars issues: ageing population, increasing competition from other countries emerging from WW2 but suffering less damage than we did, the rise of education in previously less well educated countries, exhaustion of natural resources due to our early industrialisation and still having lots of old factories, based on small family businesses.
The EU hems us in. There aren't many ways to solve these issues with the current EU framework.

So our ageing relatively less well educated population want a crack at a second adolescence with this small naturally depleted island? No offence, but what I really don't like is the fact that you start by referencing 'us' and our destiny. It sounds awfully like

Whatever Tom. The NHS will be sold off? Huh? You're just making this up as you go along. That negative attitude is how come you lost the referendum in the first place. One lonely old man drowning in his own bile. Good luck.

Don't know your age.,but this post really does constitute bile. Do you realise to what degree the NHS has already been privatised under new labour/tory government and how much that inflated health care cost?

 

[Danidl]

brexit offers us a chance to re-assess our place in the world and our politics.
We are facing all the well known post wars issues: ageing population, increasing competition from other countries emerging from WW2 but suffering less damage than we did, the rise of education in previously less well educated countries, exhaustion of natural resources due to our early industrialisation and still having lots of old factories, based on small family businesses.
The EU hems us in. There aren't many ways to solve these issues within the current EU framework.

.. the bit about other countries suffering less damage in WW2.??? Like Germany perhaps. One of the arguments about west Germanys rapid economic development in the 1950s is attributed to the fact that all their manufacturing base was destroyed, and they had to invest in new technology. As a contrast east Germany retained an amount of its heavy plant, including the railways and this slowed them down.
I will agree with you regarding education. The English model has been to get people into the workplace as soon as possible, . In less industrialised economies, particularly rural, there has been an acknowledgement that education is a stepping stone to good careers and social mobility, the Scots knew this, the Irish, particularly in western counties and the Northern Irish minority population did so.
The inflexibility of an uneducated and agressively ignorant workforce is no basis on which to build a knowledge economy.

 

[oldgroaner]

You don't know that, brexit hasn't happened yet.
inside of it, we have been slowly suffocating.
We are supposed to move to a knowledge economy. We are not going to achieve that from within.

Why not? I see no evidence of the EU suffocating anyone, where did you get that nonsense from?
We are heavily involved with the very things you say we are being excluded from doing and are now going to lose

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

Whatever Tom. The NHS will be sold off? Huh? You're just making this up as you go along. That negative attitude is how come you lost the referendum in the first place. One lonely old man drowning in his own bile. Good luck.

Amazing how pointing out the truth is responded to with an insult

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[flecc]

brexit offers us a chance to re-assess our place in the world and our politics.
We are facing all the well known post wars issues: ageing population, increasing competition from other countries emerging from WW2 but suffering less damage than we did, the rise of education in previously less well educated countries, exhaustion of natural resources due to our early industrialisation and still having lots of old factories, based on small family businesses.

All pointing to the new place in the world that we've already partly reached, as a tourist destination economy.

Our young can look forward to a future as guides, waiters, maids, cleaners or costumed actors in historically themed parks, enacting their quaint ancient skills. Morris dancing will became a mainstay industry.
.

 

[oldtom]

I hope everyone remembers how swiftly Nigel Farage, a minor politician and self-aggrandising rabble-rouser, got up close and personal with Donald Trump. People should also remember how Theresa May fawned all over the President when she visited him.

Of course, there is a good reason for that; they are all of the same class and that class is the one that profits from warmongering. That class also has a particular interest in keeping ordinary people suppressed, divided and unable to fight their tyranny.


This infographic shows exactly what Trump and all those fawning acolytes he surrounds himself with are really all about. As for May, Farage, Rees-Mogg and their ilk, by their friends ye shall know them:



Here is some news footage from the USA:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1666874286677388

Tom

ps Perhaps I have missed it but I can't recall any UK government spokesperson condemning Trump's presidency, or his public statements. Neither have I heard anyone from the tory party attempt to distance their party from Trump's warmongering.