Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Yes, you obviously have not, or simply refuse to accept the point.

Posting and commenting on Mail,s behaviour 80 years ago( which both yourself and Tom have done) merely indicates your level of extremism.
But like I,ve said before its a waste of time making any points to you..

Once again you are doing your usual utter denial of the value of history, by your logic we should allow the reappearance of Nazism as after all it was 80 years ago, they might be nice people by now.

Tom and I view History as a source of warning, instead of acting the fool, it's time you did too, as yours is the extremist view: to fall for lies because they fit in with a Gamble you have taken and you are unable to accept you could be wrong.

When you actually do have a point to make that isn't just self justifying nonsense we will be happy to listen.

 

[Zlatan]

Once again you are doing your usual utter denial of the value of history, by your logic we should allow the reappearance of Nazism as after all it was 80 years ago, they might be nice people by now.

Tom and I view History as a source of warning, instead of acting the fool, it's time you did too, as yours is the extremist view: to fall for lies because they fit in with a Gamble you have taken and you are unable to accept you could be wrong.

When you actually do have a point to make that isn't just self justifying nonsense we will be happy to listen.

You listen all the time OG...always offer a reply or an insult, more normally the latter.
You insist on personising the issues and insist I have it all wrong but offer no explanation or even change ..
Answer this OG ( without insulting me if possible) ...At a time when Tories are at an all time low, with country and government in most turmoil I can remember, with a PM who is perhaps the least poplular we,ve ever had and who fought the worst campaign in history, even refusing to take parts in discussion just why did Labour still not win.. Now I've offered an explanation. You try.

 

[Zlatan]

As a socialist I find this situation apalling. Labour cant even get into power when best Tories have is TM and Boris. Only left wing loonies could see situation as positive,or hope of revolution or something, which is never going to happen.
Labour has thrown away the opportunity of a generation and in doing so have relinquished power to weakest, most corrupt,self serving set of politicians we have ever had...if only..
And you lot applaud JC...he is part of the problem.

What's your explanation or solution OG.
Please try one without insulting, if you can.

Tories will spend next few months giving money away, saying right things, getting a replacement for TM, etc etc and labour will be back in their place..Second in GE. They might be clinging to power but they are in there, labour as normal are living in hope with no real policies on anything, especially Brexit..
Its easy to knock May , Tories, DUP,post clever Monty Python Sketches,take Michael out of Boris and Davis and negotiations, its easiest thing in world to post links to Mails past, bring up hate and provoke reaction...but what about actually suggesting what's gone wrong with Labour and suggesting how they do get into power. Not a word on any of that,yet you profess to be Socialists..Its a joke. You are making ammunition to keep Labour out of power.Unfortunately this is not unique to here. Tories are loving it.

 

[oldgroaner]

You listen all the time OG...always offer a reply or an insult, more normally the latter.
You insist on personising the issues and insist I have it all wrong but offer no explanation or even change ..
Answer this OG ( without insulting me if possible) ...At a time when Tories are at an all time low, with country and government in most turmoil I can remember, with a PM who is perhaps the least poplular we,ve ever had and who fought the worst campaign in history, even refusing to take parts in discussion just why did Labour still not win.. Now I've offered an explanation. You try.

if you want an answer to that I would direct your attention to the nearest mirror, too many people like yourself live in a fantasy world willing to bet the future on nothing more than wishful thinking, they are easily conned by propaganda as you were.
The conservatives use every method available to play on their insecurity and fears, and despite all the evidence against them being a good government, they still keep getting elected.

Sent from my Lenovo TB3-850F using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

As a socialist I find this situation apalling. Labour cant even get into power when best Tories have is TM and Boris. Only left wing loonies could see situation as positive,or hope of revolution or something, which is never going to happen.
Labour has thrown away the opportunity of a generation and in doing so have relinquished power to weakest, most corrupt,self serving set of politicians we have ever had...if only..
And you lot applaud JC...he is part of the problem.

What's your explanation or solution OG.
Please try one without insulting, if you can.

Tories will spend next few months giving money away, saying right things, getting a replacement for TM, etc etc and labour will be back in their place..Second in GE. They might be clinging to power but they are in there, labour as normal are living in hope with no real policies on anything, especially Brexit..
Its easy to knock May , Tories, DUP,post clever Monty Python Sketches,take Michael out of Boris and Davis and negotiations, its easiest thing in world to post links to Mails past, bring up hate and provoke reaction...but what about actually suggesting what's gone wrong with Labour and suggesting how they do get into power. Not a word on any of that,yet you profess to be Socialists..Its a joke. You are making ammunition to keep Labour out of power.Unfortunately this is not unique to here. Tories are loving it.

What on earth are you going on about? Let's be quite clear you are not a socialist, just a pink Tory, the very idea of socialism doesn't appeal to you, as you have confirmed in the past that you are a gambler by nature, not merely financially but with the future of the public.

New labour were nothing more than people with your outlook who wanted conservative policies they thought would benefit them yet give the false impression they were doing it for the public good and were really socialist.
The"con" is worn out and dead, move on.

Sent from my Lenovo TB3-850F using Tapatalk

 

[Zlatan]

What on earth are you going on about? Let's be quite clear you are not a socialist, just a pink Tory, the very idea of socialism doesn't appeal to you, as you have confirmed in the past that you are a gambler by nature, not merely financially but with the future of the public.

New labour were nothing more than people with your outlook who wanted conservative policies they thought would benefit them yet give the false impression they were doing it for the public good and were really socialist.
The"con" is worn out and dead, move on.

Sent from my Lenovo TB3-850F using Tapatalk

Very predictable OG. Choose a few ( wrong) adjectives to classify my stance, ramble on quite a bit wallowing in your own self rightousness but offer neither an explanation as to why Labour lost last election ( blaming people like me is at best subjective and answers nothing) and then no advice or direction for labour to make sure they stand a chance next time. Just the normal blame some ill informed 3rd party.

You could at least try to offer some semblance of either an explanation, but you cant. As usual you just knock, lay blame at another's door. You really should be looking closer at home if labour are ever going to get to no 10..
I don't really think you want labour in power, firstly you,d lose your raison d,etre and you said you were voting lib Dem anyway. Some socialist.

 

[oldgroaner]

Very predictable OG. Choose a few ( wrong) adjectives to classify my stance, ramble on quite a bit wallowing in your own self rightousness but offer neither an explanation as to why Labour lost last election ( blaming people like me is at best subjective and answers nothing) and then no advice or direction for labour to make sure they stand a chance next time. Just the normal blame some ill informed 3rd party.

You could at least try to offer some semblance of either an explanation, but you cant. As usual you just knock, lay blame at another's door. You really should be looking closer at home if labour are ever going to get to no 10..

I gave you the reason labour lost, but you persist in failing to understand, the rest of your post is just the usual nonsense and trying and failing to score points.
And you conveniently forget labour was supposed to lose hundreds of seats to the conservatives wasn't it? Yet came very close to beating them.
So your turn to explain why wasn't there a massive loss of seats as you and others were expecting?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[anotherkiwi]

Its like saying we don't trust Germans because of role they played in the 1930's.

In fact I think that is why there was a brexit vote... Okay not the role they played in the 30s but a lack of trust in the role they have in the EU. Except their cars, you love those...

 

[Woosh]

the BSA (British Social Attitude) found a strong correlation between vote leave and 'concern over immigration' and 'old school leavers'.
The reality is that our parliament is pro EU but mandated to carry out the referendum result. There is only one way to solve this conundrum: a soft brexit.

 

[Mal69]

the BSA (British Social Attitude) found a strong correlation between vote leave and 'concern over immigration' and 'old school leavers'.
The reality is that our parliament is pro EU but mandated to carry out the referendum result. There is only one way to solve this conundrum: a soft brexit.

Soft Brexit requires we continue to pay the European Union a lot of money and still have an open door policy on immigration, that's not what people voted for, I just see a divided and split Britain on this and whatever happens with Brexit not everyone is going to be pleased.

 

[oldgroaner]

the BSA (British Social Attitude) found a strong correlation between vote leave and 'concern over immigration' and 'old school leavers'.
The reality is that our parliament is pro EU but mandated to carry out the referendum result. There is only one way to solve this conundrum: a soft brexit.

4% Majority in an Advisory Referendum is not a Mandate, even the Leave Camp would not have accepted that , for as Farage said
4% majority for remain would not finish it, it would be simply Work in Progress.
Now why would he say that do you think?
The best deal for us was what we had, Brexit is a self induced disaster.

 

[oldgroaner]

An example of how well informed and organised the Government is
"
MP 'flabbergasted' as government can't say how many treaties need renegotiating after Brexit
The Brexit Department would not even give SNP MP Martyn Day an estimate - more than a year after Britain voted to leave the EU
The Brexit Department would not even provide Martyn Day with an estimate - more than a year after Britain voted to leave the EU.

Research by the Financial Times last month estimated the UK has to renegotiate at least 759 treaties.

So the SNP MP asked Brexit Secretary David Davis "what estimate he has made of the number of treaties requiring renegotiation" due to Brexit.
But Brexit minister Steve Baker replied to Mr Day's written Commons question today with no number - instead saying an assessment is still being carried out."

Great! how many years is all that going to take, at what cost, and who pays?

 

[Woosh]

Soft Brexit requires we continue to pay the European Union a lot of money and still have an open door policy on immigration, that's not what people voted for, I just see a divided and split Britain on this and whatever happens with Brexit not everyone is going to be pleased.

soft brexit: leaving the single market but remaining in the EU customs union.

 

[Woosh]

4% Majority in an Advisory Referendum is not a Mandate, even the Leave Camp would not have accepted that , for as Farage said
4% majority for remain would not finish it, it would be simply Work in Progress.
Now why would he say that do you think?
The best deal for us was what we had, Brexit is a self induced disaster.

whatever your view on this, OG, our system has a non-mandate for our MPs to form a government but most MPs will see referendums as mandates from the people.

 

[Woosh]

Great! how many years is all that going to take, at what cost, and who pays?

my daughter in law is soon seconded to dexu - thousands of civil servants will join dexu from all departments for a few years to sort out brexit.

 

[oldgroaner]

whatever your view on this, OG, our system has a non-mandate for our MPs to form a government but most MPs will see referendums as mandates from the people.

Then why did they not set the normal qualifiers of requiring a minimum level of support for constitutional change?
Answer
Because they thought it was all a joke and the public would never fall for it.
Bit foolish to underestimate the public mood.
Then after the event they realised how they had been presented with the chance of a lifetime to do whatever they liked to make profits.
How wonderful! what an opportunity to "take control", subdue the workers to make them subservient and profit thereby, and the cream on that cake?
No matter what they sell off or the hardship they cause the poor, it can all be justified as "The Will of the people"
They can tell them that is what you voted for.
And the irony of that comment is that it is completely true!

 

[oldgroaner]

What on Earth are Labour doing?
"
Labour refuses call to criticise Theresa May for pulling Britain out of EU single market in Lords vote
House of Lords also hears an appeal from a former Cabinet Secretary for the Brexit negotiations to be suspended
Jeremy Corbyn ordered his peers to abstain on the vote, despite leading Labour figures hinting, in recent days, that the party backed staying in a “reformed” single market.

Instead, Labour backed a motion calling for a Brexit deal to deliver “the exact same benefits as the United Kingdom currently has as a member of the single market”.



Labour MPs demand Corbyn fights to stay in single market
The stance was criticised as a “betrayal of future generations” by Tim Farron, the Liberal Democrat leader, who urged Labour to change course before a similar vote in the Commons on Thursday.

But a Labour source insisted it was making clear its determination to fight for a different, less damaging Brexit by demanding the same benefits as single market membership.

The amendment, to the Queen’s Speech, was tabled by Lord Adonis, the former Labour Transport Secretary, who said pulling out of the single market would cause “lasting damage to the UK”.

The only way to achieve the same benefits as single market membership is, surely to cancel Brexit.

 

[Woosh]

"The Will of the people"

that is usually the poorest expression of democracy but on issues like the EU's freedom of movement, the only way to come to a conclusion.

 

[oldgroaner]

that is usually the poorest expression of democracy but on issues like the EU's freedom of movement, the only way to come to a conclusion.

And if the "Will of the people" is now different?
Are we going to ask them again?
Or was it a case of Caveat Emptor?

 

[oldtom]

One of my socialist beliefs is contained in these three lines:

Poverty has long been a tool of oppression, vital in maintaining a hierarchical system of inherited titles and wealth, as well as keeping the masses in their place.

Another socialist had this to say about the matter:

"Overcoming poverty is not a task of charity, it is an act of justice. Like Slavery and Apartheid, poverty is not natural. It is man-made and it can be overcome and eradicated by the actions of human beings."

That man's name was Nelson Mandela.

This is the UK today:





Shame on every person who has ever cast a vote for the political party responsible for continuing this evil.

Tom