I agree, I cannot talk about Greece or the others but the Irish situation would certainly not have been helped by devaluation. Ireland had a booming economy, based originally in proper economic growth, then found access to cheap German money, cheap because the Germans were putting it into banks, invested some of it into productive purposes eg road network, but more into speculative housebuilding. Imported polish labour to build them on the assumption that net immigration would continue and created a spiral
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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The equivalent Greek foolishness was borrowing vast euro sums to spend on excessively large armed forces, motivated solely by military pride. They even bought four of the latest submarines, which defence experts are agreed cannot be of any use to the Greeks.
Add their total failure to collect taxes plus the widespread corruption in their very large wealthy class and their current disastrous situation is fully explained.
But they blame the EU for their own irresponsible behaviour.
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So why on earth do remainers want to remain alongside them ? Your argument is as strong for leaving EU as mine..
I don't quite see it as you do but if I did I would not want to either carry on bailing them out or have them as economic partners.
Either way we are better away , as many there also feel.
I don't know what you see differently, I've just stated the facts of the Greek situation, totally self inflicted for which the EU is not to blame.
As for why I wish to stay, theres two ways of dealing with a problematic club member. One is to deal with that club member, the other is to run away by leaving the club and losing the membership advantages.
Being sensible I chose the first way.
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The EU is to blame for letting them in in the first place
I don't like clubs...
I see it that EU ( more specifically euro) has caused many of Greece's current problems, but why on earth would you wish to stay in a trading club where you don't trust many of its members, suspect ( actually you assume you know) some members are corrupt with you having little power to change anything.( As Hungary quite clearly demonstrated last night)
It makes no sense to desire a trading member you see as unfit to trade with...
Its a perfectly valid reason to leave,for both parties. To be fair its probably more valid than my reasoning.
If EU had shown any power to influence corrupt, none tax paying, rule breaking members I could agree with you. Fact is all member states simply ignore any eu directives they feel fit to. ( Borders in Hungary, Tax in Luxembourg, motor cycle laws France, corruption in Italy .
Last night Juhnkers demonstrated his total lack of power over Hungary. His only remonstration was an underhand insult calling their PM a dictator. Nothing else. Its a pointless, toothless organisation that does not know wether its a trading block or a political assembly..Its doomed, wether we leave or not.
I thought that was made more than apparent last night. ( I,d thought so before but certain now)
if I had to single out one big difference between brexiters and remainers then it has to be foreign investment.
Brexiters see foreign investment as part of the globalisation, moving jobs from one country to another in pursuit of profit. The victims of business closures will naturally support protectionism and taking back control.
Remainers see foreign investment as crucial in economic success and the essential building material of peace on earth. Voting to remain is assumed to be common sense.
Neither side will want to explore the downside of their argument. Only a real brexit test will determine who is more right.
Brexiters see foreign investment as part of the globalisation, moving jobs from one country to another in pursuit of profit. The victims of business closures will naturally support protectionism and taking back control.
Remainers see foreign investment as crucial in economic success and the essential building material of peace on earth. Voting to remain is assumed to be common sense.
Neither side will want to explore the downside of their argument. Only a real brexit test will determine who is more right.
Why is it that leavers cannot see how foolish it is to say things like this?
One moment they say the EU is dictatorial and enforcing laws, the next that it's toothless.
Make you minds up!
And the EU knows exactly what it is, it's a trading organisation developing into a fully political organisation intended to eventually be in control of a single country called Europe.
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From the site of a well known investment bank:
Why You Should Choose to Invest in Greece
Strong Points
- Member of the European Union and European Monetary Union, which are likely to continue providing strategic oversight, assistance and access to credit during the country's economic struggles.
- One of the strongest shipping sectors in the world.
- Its geographical location, which makes it a strategic link to the emerging markets of the Balkans, Black Sea, Eastern Europe and Eastern Mediterranean regions.
- Prospects for tourism in the long-term remain strong. As the industry continues to grow, it will create opportunities for investments related to upgrading or updating related infrastructure.
Weak Points
- The economic crisis has greatly diminished economic prospects. Consumer confidence has decreased, liquidity issues have made it difficult to access credit and consumption has dramatically scaled back.
- Bureaucratic inefficiencies, burdensome regulations and uncertainty of the future regulatory scheme.
- Reports of corruption weave through aspects of economic and commercial life (according to Transparency International).
- Many industries tend to be oligopolistic in nature, creating difficulty for those who wish to enter the sector.
EU membership could help Greece with those negative points by imposing EU regulations.
The error wasn't letting Greece into the EU it was letting it into the Euro zone while those last three negative points had not been dealt with.
Why You Should Choose to Invest in Greece
Strong Points
- Member of the European Union and European Monetary Union, which are likely to continue providing strategic oversight, assistance and access to credit during the country's economic struggles.
- One of the strongest shipping sectors in the world.
- Its geographical location, which makes it a strategic link to the emerging markets of the Balkans, Black Sea, Eastern Europe and Eastern Mediterranean regions.
- Prospects for tourism in the long-term remain strong. As the industry continues to grow, it will create opportunities for investments related to upgrading or updating related infrastructure.
Weak Points
- The economic crisis has greatly diminished economic prospects. Consumer confidence has decreased, liquidity issues have made it difficult to access credit and consumption has dramatically scaled back.
- Bureaucratic inefficiencies, burdensome regulations and uncertainty of the future regulatory scheme.
- Reports of corruption weave through aspects of economic and commercial life (according to Transparency International).
- Many industries tend to be oligopolistic in nature, creating difficulty for those who wish to enter the sector.
EU membership could help Greece with those negative points by imposing EU regulations.
The error wasn't letting Greece into the EU it was letting it into the Euro zone while those last three negative points had not been dealt with.
Mike....I didnt realise that you could be a Leftie and Fascist at the same time,aren't they contradictory.....but am prepared to learn.
KudosDave
Isn't political spectrum a circle ?? Heard it argued as such before..
No knowing these days...
Guess which country has fought Tooth and Nail to reduce the EU's power over the member nations?
So we can say using your own words that if the EU is given MORE POWER over the member nations, your attitude would be pro EU?
Exactly what would be the answer you would give right now, bearing in mind your answers tend to differ from one side to the other without any warning.
And you seem unable to remember what the last answer was?
Perhaps they could be seen in that way whereas your arguments are always circular, making them great fun! keep up the good work.
Then how on Earth has Brexit any attraction for large numbers of Torys who are Capitalist in nature?
A quite unnecessary waste of time money hope and resources to please a bunch of compulsive Gamblers, that's Brexit, based on Wishful thinking, lies and leaving the public at the mercy of it's worst enemies!
What's not to like?
Everything about Brexit.
The capitalists of course love globalisation but there are other reasons for wanting brexit too. If you have enough money to buy anything your heart desires then what would be the next thing you'd like to spend your money on? power over others? public adulation?
How clearly does it need to be spelled out before people stop and think about what secession from a 28-strong group of sovereign nation states will actually mean?
Do you actually think this guy is bluffing?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38925440
Tom
Do you actually think this guy is bluffing?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38925440
Tom
You could say it but as usual.it would be BS.
And no, even if they had power to bring Hungary, Portugal,Spain, France, Italy and UK into line I would still leave.
Just read my posts OG , stop trying to deduce stuff from between lines. You are sh!te at it.