Brexit, for once some facts.

jonathan.agnew

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I wouldn't bet on it Woosh...
Fwiw I hope its truss. And kwarteng. The conservative electorate clearly need another four years in the let's see how badly we can **** ourselves and blame everyone else for what's wrong tumbledryer before they're ready to beg the EU to rejoin..
 
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Zlatan

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Fwiw I hope its truss. And kwarteng. The conservative electorate clearly need another four years in the let's see how badly we can **** ourselves and blame everyone else for what's wrong tumbledryer before they're ready to beg the EU to rejoin..
It wouldnt surprise me to see Tories having rejoin in their next manifesto. If Tories think it would maintain power for them, they, d do it. Starmer /Labour will stick to their "ideals". Since Tories have none, they can adjust to the flavour next election. And Boris could lead it.
 

jonathan.agnew

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It wouldnt surprise me to see Tories having rejoin in their next manifesto. If Tories think it would maintain power for them, they, d do it. Starmer /Labour will stick to their "ideals". Since Tories have none, they can adjust to the flavour next election. And Boris could lead it.
That would fit the opportunistic populist boris/trump/le Penn et al approach that's so devoid of ethics. And I can well imagine sections of our electorate are thick enough to fall for it, again. But two snags is it really something to hope for, to aspire to? And, more importantly, because its devoid of integrity, principle, ideal it's the reason why truss came along, with economic "policies" that lacked credibility. In other words the lack of integrity at the heart of conservative politics is the reason why its business model doesnt work - it lacks credibility, which requires principles, planning, long term thinking.
 

Zlatan

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That would fit the opportunistic populist boris/trump/le Penn et al approach that's so devoid of ethics. And I can well imagine sections of our electorate are thick enough to fall for it, again. But two snags is it really something to hope for, to aspire to? And, more importantly, because its devoid of integrity, principle, ideal it's the reason why truss came along, with economic "policies" that lacked credibility. In other words the lack of integrity at the heart of conservative politics is the reason why its business model doesnt work - it lacks credibility, which requires principles, planning, long term thinking.
Totatally agreed, but fact remains Tories could easily still be in power post 2024 GE.
How many times have we seen it now. We write Tories off because of scandal, ineptitude, lack of ability or whatever. They lick their wounds, change policies, rewrite history. We need more than Starmer to really stand a chance of getting Tories out.
 

jonathan.agnew

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Totatally agreed, but fact remains Tories could easily still be in power post 2024 GE.
How many times have we seen it now. We write Tories off because of scandal, ineptitude, lack of ability or whatever. They lick their wounds, change policies, rewrite history. We need more than Starmer to really stand a chance of getting Tories out.
As you point out the tories can and will likely lie, expediently offer the electorate more snake oil, sunny uplands. narcissism and psychopathy can be adaptive, can get one ahead in life. But narcissists and psychopaths also invariably leave trails of destruction, betrayal, deceit, broken trust. Much like the conservative party has. and this could be more useful for rehabilitating the electorate than hoping for a starmer that would outlie outdeceive boris.
Edit - I'm not saying you're suggesting this, but one thing we emphatically dont need at this point in time is a teflon Tony mark 2
 
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guerney

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It wouldnt surprise me to see Tories having rejoin in their next manifesto.
"Mistakes were made. We have learned" - Eton and Oxford? I'm sick of know-nothing-bozos, particularly if they're leading the country.
 

guerney

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Aren't we all?
Apparently not. The count seems to have slowed to a crawl - it'll speed up after the budget, when (possibly) a savage austerity budget which strangles growth before birth, is unveiled. Time to short the pound for a short time interval? I bet sneaky has forewarned the Hindujas.

49491
 
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guerney

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You know why top football teams have 2 top players for every position? They tell us its to have a reserve, incase of injury, fatigue or illness. That's BS. It's to make every player compete for their place, without a better replacement a player knows the manager has nochoice but to play her/him. Without competition the player can be lazy, cleverly shirk training and put in 85% performances.
Overtime, that 85% gets less and less. (think MUFC, last 10 years)
Our government (Tories) have had that scenario since Tony Blair blew both his feet off,with no sign of things changing.
In reality Tories can't get worse, can they? Prtoblem is no matter how bad they are or get there is no alternative. How bad is Labour when they must still improve to guarantee kicking Tories out.???
Are you expecting the greased piglet to be trotted out, at the second half of the second half, if they sense oncoming GE loss? Some populist leaders are only good at times of war, which the prospect of defeat can be interpreted as such.
 
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guerney

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As you point out the tories can and will likely lie, expediently offer the electorate more snake oil, sunny uplands. narcissism and psychopathy can be adaptive, can get one ahead in life. But narcissists and psychopaths also invariably leave trails of destruction, betrayal, deceit, broken trust. Much like the conservative party has. and this could be more useful for rehabilitating the electorate than hoping for a starmer that would outlie outdeceive boris.
Edit - I'm not saying you're suggesting this, but one thing we emphatically dont need at this point in time is a teflon Tony mark 2
I've directly observed populations learning psychopathic habits from their peers, even if they're not psychopaths themselves - they emulate to survive and gain higher position in such groups... which sort of explains why there appears to be a higher proportion of psychopaths in the Tory party than in the general population. But those behaviours sometimes suddenly disintegrate in some individuals, if they don't integrate well enough within, if enough pressure is applied. I'm hoping mass panic at apparent inevitable impending doom, turns the Tory party into a drooling stark staring mad jibbering mess sharpish.
 

guerney

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Sep 7, 2021
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As you point out the tories can and will likely lie, expediently offer the electorate more snake oil, sunny uplands. narcissism and psychopathy can be adaptive, can get one ahead in life. But narcissists and psychopaths also invariably leave trails of destruction, betrayal, deceit, broken trust. Much like the conservative party has. and this could be more useful for rehabilitating the electorate than hoping for a starmer that would outlie outdeceive boris.
Edit - I'm not saying you're suggesting this, but one thing we emphatically dont need at this point in time is a teflon Tony mark 2
I confess I have't slow jogged since I wrote about it last. Trying to schedule three regular slow jogs a day around my local park is a nightmare - it's flatness is appealing, which should make for consistent slow jogging conditions, and it's the only horizontal area anywhere near me. I'll start with once a day. If you're overweight, it's easier if you haven't eaten for a few hours - allows time for blood pressure to reduce.
 
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Zlatan

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I've directly observed populations learning psychopathic habits from their peers, even if they're not psychopaths themselves - they emulate to survive and gain higher position in such groups... which sort of explains why there appears to be a higher proportion of psychopaths in the Tory party than in the general population. But those behaviours sometimes suddenly disintegrate in some individuals, if they don't integrate well enough within, if enough pressure is applied. I'm hoping mass panic at apparent inevitable impending doom, turns the Tory party into a drooling stark staring mad jibbering mess sharpish.
Screenshot_20221114_092457.jpg

Process has happened before.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Can one really put starmer et al in the same category as the pig or truss (or chunt for that matter, or gove, or smogg)???
Given Starmer's record as the Crown Prosecutor for the country, yes. It set him up nicely with equally unscrupulous politicians to sail into politics.

The Tories having destroyed Corbyn with their usual smear methods left an easy entry for Starmer, not just with Labour due to his parental background but also with the Tories, who saw in him Blair mark 2, another pseudo labour opportunist barrister.

I don't see Starmer as truly labour. His parents certainly were, which is why they named him Keir after Keir Hardie, the first leader of the Labour Party. But although he has always been very vocal and an activist about human rights, that quickly went out of the window during his tenure as Director of Crown Prosecutions and head of the Crown Prosecution Service.

His future and pleasing Tory politicians then became the priorities, leading to the Knighthood the Tory party in government rewarded him with, something a true labour believer woudn't have accepted. He was equally two faced about leaving the EU, at first becoming the willing shadow minister for leaving the EU but later claiming he would have voted Remain given a second chance.
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flecc

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true Labour = what? there is already a communist party of United Kingdom.
That's an extreme comment.

True Labour is consistently socialist, not Tory and not communist.

If you want to know what that looks like, Sweden is an excellent fully functioning example.
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Woosh

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That's an extreme comment.

True Labour is consistently socialist, not Tory and not communist.

If you want to know what that looks like, Sweden is an excellent fully functioning example.
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True Labour is what won elections.
 
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jonathan.agnew

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That's an extreme comment.

True Labour is consistently socialist, not Tory and not communist.

If you want to know what that looks like, Sweden is an excellent fully functioning example.
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On a lighter note, who knows who anybody is? Fortunately we have the new musk Twitter to clarify things
Gotta hand it to musk, he's really created a new space for a far right Republican agenda
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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True Labour is what won elections.
If you mean Blair, No, that's expedient Labour which is a dead end that can never achieve it's goal of socialism. The same expediency that makes it no different from Conservatism, unprincipled winning regardless of the cost to so many.

Saying one: "If at first one doesn't succeed, try, try, try again". Eventually it works as 1924, 1929 and 1945 showed, all adding socialism to our future at a cost to Conservatism. Thanks to those true Labour governments our lives have been radically better than the early lives of my parents.

Saying two: "Rome wasn't built in a day", success doesn't necessarily arrive in one lifetime, but that is not a reason to divert from a true course.
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Woosh

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The job of the government is to govern for all people, that means to occupy the centre of politics.
I have seen Labour under Michael Foot, Neil Kinnock, John Smith, then Tony Blair breaking the cycle, Gordon Brown, Ed Miliband, Jeremy Corbyn and now Keir Starmer. Each time, I said to myself, that this Labour team is still too far left, it cannot win without occupying the centre. Even now with Kier Starmer. Rachel Reeve has no better strategy than Sunak and Hunt. It's not that I agree with zlatan that there is no alternative to the conservatives, I simply think that the conservatives will lose the next election by sleaze.
 

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