Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

The West are making complete fools of themselved over human rights laws.

They've just imposed sanctions on the children of Putin and Lavrov. Since when can the sins of the fathers be visited upon their children? What about their human rights?

The same applies to all the other sanctions imposed on relatives and friends, all of them illegal under human rights acts and the Geneva Convention.
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[Danidl]

The West are making complete fools of themselved over human rights laws.

They've just imposed sanctions on the children of Putin and Lavrov. Since when can the sins of the fathers be visited upon their children? What about their human rights?

The same applies to all the other sanctions imposed on relatives and friends, all of them illegal under human rights acts and the Geneva Convention.
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Get real flecc. Nobody has any right to be beyond their own countries boundary. That's what being a citizen is supposed to mean . Look at your passport for the fine print .. Its a REQUEST to allow the bearer to travel in this other land. Now the EU , Russia ,China etc etc are perfectly free to remove the privilege of roaming in their territory to anyone not a citizen of their country. That is what sovereignty actually means. There is no Geneva Convention for Tourists.

 

[flecc]

Get real flecc. Nobody has any right to be beyond their own countries boundary. That's what being a citizen is supposed to mean . Look at your passport for the fine print .. Its a REQUEST to allow the bearer to travel in this other land. Now the EU , Russia ,China etc etc are perfectly free to remove the privilege of roaming in their territory to anyone not a citizen of their country. That is what sovereignty actually means. There is no Geneva Convention for Tourists.

So by your token Putin isn't guilty of any human rights abuse and an international court has no legitimacy or function.

You can't have it both ways, but that is what the West is always guilty of trying to do.
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[jonathan.agnew]

So by your token Putin isn't guilty of any human rights abuse and an international court has no legitimacy or function.

You can't have it both ways, but that is what the West is always guilty of trying to do.
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Prosecution of crimes against humanity (unlike tourism) are not subject to national boundaries

Crime against humanity | International Law, Genocide & War Crimes | Britannica

Crime against humanity, an offense in international criminal law, adopted in the Charter of the International Military Tribunal (Nürnberg Charter), which tried surviving Nazi leaders in 1945, and was, in 1998, incorporated into the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC). Crimes

www.britannica.com

 

[Danidl]

So by your token Putin isn't guilty of any human rights abuse and an international court has no legitimacy or function.

You can't have it both ways, but that is what the West is always guilty of trying to do.
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NOPE, you must realise that that is nonsense. . Sovereign states are enabled to make treaties and agreements with other Sovereign states . That is what the EU, NATO, Geneva conventions , ICC, , IMO, etc Etc is all about .. State to State . The general rule of sovereignty is NO TRESSPASS ... Which is what Russia is doing in crimea, and Donbass and Ukraine.
And I have been extremely consistent in this stance. That Ms Begum should have been brought back to the country where she has citizenship , and if necessary tried

 

[guerney]

DARPA says US hypersonic missile is ready for the real world

A new arms race emerges

www.theregister.com

 

[Woosh]

They've just imposed sanctions on the children of Putin and Lavrov. Since when can the sins of the fathers be visited upon their children? What about their human rights?

they are sanctions on property rights. The West is not trying to imprison their children.

 

[Woosh]

I do see that, but recognise it doesn't matter to Russia. With plenty of gas and oil they can just sell more if they wish to get the same income. Excluded from the world financial system they don't need the foreign currency anyway, they have plenty of that stockpiled already, so just some roubles coming in will keep them afloat.
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consider other aspects such as public opinion, freedom of movement, exchange of technology, cultural, sports, tourism etc. Just look where you can fly to from Moscow.
Russians and Russia will lose a great deal more if this war lasts any longer than the 9th of May.

 

[Zlatan]

consider other aspects such as public opinion, freedom of movement, exchange of technology, cultural, sports, tourism etc. Just look where you can fly to from Moscow.
Russians and Russia will lose a great deal more if this war lasts any longer than the 9th of May.

I think you are right but I can't see conflict ending in May. Putin must keep going until he has something to show and Ukraine changed its messaging/objectives. Initially they simply wanted to maintain Sovereignty and not have a puppet government taking over in Kyiv... Now they have held out there they are saying control of all Ukraine.. They want Russians out and to pay for all the atrocities. Putin wants more, not less or none. Thousands more to die on both sides.
Putin knows full well if he comes back empty handed and with thousands of young soldiers dead he can't remain in power.
Way things are going Ukraine will put loads more of a fight up for regions already lost. How many Ukrainians did latest atrocities call to Arms. They have 25 million potential soldiers? . Yes, Russia might feel inclined to send in Canon fodder, I suspect Ukrainians are now thinking send them. See what happens.??
This could last years.
Seems nobody learns from history. Our "boys" were going to be back for Christmas.

 

[flecc]

they are sanctions on property rights. The West is not trying to imprison their children.

Confiscating property is theft, preventing travel is imprisonment.
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[flecc]

consider other aspects such as public opinion, freedom of movement, exchange of technology, cultural, sports, tourism etc. Just look where you can fly to from Moscow.
Russians and Russia will lose a great deal more if this war lasts any longer than the 9th of May.

They'll be largely back to the USSR days. Half the Russians who live in those days have regretted that disappearing.
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[Danidl]

They'll be largely back to the USSR days. Half the Russians who live in those days have regretted that disappearing.
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They'll be largely back to the USSR days. Half the Russians who live in those days have regretted that disappearing.
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Since only half of those who lived then, regret it's passing, and they are the old, then half the older people are delighted its gone and all those under about 45 who never experienced it ,are delighted those days are over , you are therefore referring to a small minority. A number of those older people were shocked by the economic climate after the USSR collapse.
Nostalgia is a strong drug, and we continue to read about British people harking back to WW2 ,and whether they had a " Good War".
Moreover they are not back to USSR days in ..that is where you are wrong. No Czech or East Germany for high tech manufacturing, No Hungary, no Black resorts, No Poland to bully , Russians were cock of the walk and ruling their own empire, so could lord it over the other republics, they wouldn't have that again.

 

[Danidl]

Confiscating property is theft, preventing travel is imprisonment.
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The West has not confiscated anything of these Russian Oligarchs . They have frozen assets .. Similarly the Russians have either confiscated or frozen ...we don't know yet, Billions of Euros worth of Irish owned Aircraft on lease to Aeroflot..and re-registered them as Russian.

 

[Woosh]

They'll be largely back to the USSR days. Half the Russians who live in those days have regretted that disappearing.
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Half is not a bad progress.
You only have to compare the number of defectors to the West against the same to Moscow to see the direction of people's aspirations.

 

[Woosh]

Confiscating property is theft

since when? property belongs to the people who live on the territory and is only ceded temporarily to individuals. People give, people take and governments represent people.

 

[oyster]

They'll be largely back to the USSR days. Half the Russians who live in those days have regretted that disappearing.
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I have a feeling they might be getting the bad side of USSR days - without the benefits such as state arranged holidays, low prices, etc.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

I think you are right but I can't see conflict ending in May. Putin must keep going until he has something to show and Ukraine changed its messaging/objectives. Initially they simply wanted to maintain Sovereignty and not have a puppet government taking over in Kyiv... Now they have held out there they are saying control of all Ukraine.. They want Russians out and to pay for all the atrocities. Putin wants more, not less or none. Thousands more to die on both sides.
Putin knows full well if he comes back empty handed and with thousands of young soldiers dead he can't remain in power.
Way things are going Ukraine will put loads more of a fight up for regions already lost. How many Ukrainians did latest atrocities call to Arms. They have 25 million potential soldiers? . Yes, Russia might feel inclined to send in Canon fodder, I suspect Ukrainians are now thinking send them. See what happens.??
This could last years.
Seems nobody learns from history. Our "boys" were going to be back for Christmas.

Even if the war ended in May this Pandoras box isnt resealable. There isn't a going back to the happy state of denial of allowing Russia to annihilate thir World cities and getting into ever deeper collusion by funding that through buying its energy. Were in for a protracted war in Ukraine until, if russia withdraw completely and a much longer cold war

 

[flecc]

There isn't a going back to the happy state of denial of allowing Russia to annihilate thir World cities

Looking at what has happened since WW2, surely you meant the USA?

They are by far the champions in this field.
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[jonathan.agnew]

Looking at what has happened since WW2, surely you meant the USA?

They are by far the champions in this field.
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USA support the al sisi regime in Egypt, cia created sadam, taliban so you have a point. Russia has however spectacularly crossed boundaries ito war crimes in ukraine that irreversibly set the stage for a new cold war

 

[flecc]

Russia has however spectacularly crossed boundaries ito war crimes in ukraine that irreversibly set the stage for a new cold war

Agreed.

Since the USA crossed those boundaries even more spectacularly during the early years of the cold war, but escaped worldwide criticism, I suppose the perverse moral is that Russia should have started a new cold war before starting their war in Ukraine.
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