Brexit, for once some facts.

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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OG/ Tillson
It was me who originally said I hadn't voted, and now explained 3 times that I took that line in an attempt to sit on fence, avoid the flack ( or was it flecc). OG misses the posts he wants to, reads in the others what he wants and comments on everything. For the third time now. Yes ,I voted Leave...( had to travel all way from North Pole)
I,m actually shocked at the lack of incisive bile from remainers moaning about the MPs now being leavers. ( well over 60% of them anyways)

Has pound hit parity with euro and dollar yet...? Wont be long...

Advisory...puhhhh.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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OG/ Tillson
It was me who originally said I hadn't voted, and now explained 3 times that I took that line in an attempt to sit on fence, avoid the flack ( or was it flecc). OG misses the posts he wants to, reads in the others what he wants and comments on everything. For the third time now. Yes ,I voted Leave...( had to travel all way from North Pole)
I,m actually shocked at the lack of incisive bile from remainers moaning about the MPs now being leavers. ( well over 60% of them anyways)

Has pound hit parity with euro and dollar yet...? Wont be long...

Advisory...puhhhh.
"For the third time now. Yes ,I voted Leave...( had to travel all way from North Pole) then a little proof please?
If I missed those posts I apologise, but you are going to have to prove that.
lets see the posts where you said you voted leave, there's a good chap.
By the way I have just been through all of your posts and could only find the one were you said "We voted" and I took you up about it.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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OG/ Tillson
It was me who originally said I hadn't voted, and now explained 3 times that I took that line in an attempt to sit on fence, avoid the flack ( or was it flecc). OG misses the posts he wants to, reads in the others what he wants and comments on everything. For the third time now. Yes ,I voted Leave...( had to travel all way from North Pole)
I,m actually shocked at the lack of incisive bile from remainers moaning about the MPs now being leavers. ( well over 60% of them anyways)

Has pound hit parity with euro and dollar yet...? Wont be long...

Advisory...puhhhh.
No I most certainly didn't miss the point, you couldn't make your mind up but now want to appear you were on the winning side, and if it goes wrong have the wriggle room to say "Actually I didn't vote for it"
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Here is the latest fiction from TM]
"
here is the 12-point plan set out in the Government's White Paper:

1. 'Certainty and clarity' and a vote for Parliament on final deal

Mrs May warned there will be 'give and take' in the upcoming negotiations, compromises will be inevitable and 'not everybody will be able to know everything at every stage'.

But she promised she will give MPs and peers a vote on the final deal that is agreed between the UK and the EU - expected to be in early 2019.

2. 'Control of our own laws'

The UK will take control of our own affairs once again by ending the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, the Prime Minister announced.

She said laws will only be made in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, adding: 'Those laws will be interpreted by judges not in Luxembourg but in courts across this country.'

3. Strengthen the United Kingdom

Mrs May's third pledge is to strengthen the ‘precious union’ between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

She said it is 'more important than ever that we face the future together' because we are 'united by what makes us strong: the bonds that unite us as a people, and our shared interest in the UK being an open, successful trading nation in the future.'

She assured this would not mean any devolved powers being removed from the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland institutions.

4. No hard border in Ireland

The PM promised to reach a 'practical solution' to maintain the Common Travel Area with the Republic of Ireland.

She pointed out that the freedom to move between Northern Ireland and the Republic had been in place since before both nations joined the EU.

'Nobody wants to return to the borders of the past, so we will make it a priority to deliver a practical solution as soon as we can,' she said.

5. Regain control of immigration

Britain will 'control immigration to Britain from Europe' by scrapping freedom of movement rules, Mrs May said in one of the most important pledges of her speech.

She insisted the UK will 'continue to attract the brightest and the best' to work and study here but said the process will be 'managed properly so that our immigration system serves the national interest'.

It means the years of open borders between Britain and the 27 other EU member states will be slammed shut when we cut ties with Brussels.

The absence of a 100 per cent guarantee on protecting the rights of EU nationals currently in the UK has already sparked trouble with Tory MPs

6. Rights of EU nationals in Britain and British expats in Europe

Mrs May promised to reach a deal with her European rivals 'as soon as we can' to guarantee the rights of EU nationals already living in the UK to stay here after Brexit.

She said this would involve a reciprocal deal for British expats living on the continent to remain there.

7. Protect workers' rights

In a bid to reassure and win the backing of trade unions and the Labour party the PM said her EU deal will not only translate EU law on workers' rights into UK law but said she will 'build on them'.

8. Free trade deal with European markets

Appealing to her European rivals not to punish Britain, Mrs May said her approach to free trade will prioritise Europe.

She wants a 'bold and ambitious free trade agreement with the European Union' that allows the 'freest possible trade in goods and services' between Britain and the other 27 EU member states.

9. New trade deals with the rest of the world

When Britain frees itself from EU rules banning us from striking individual deals with other nations it will 'increase significantly its trade with the fastest growing export markets in the world'.

Branding her trade policy 'global Britain,' she said: 'Since joining the EU, trade as a percentage of GDP has broadly stagnated in the UK.

'That is why it is time for Britain to get out into the world and rediscover its role as a great, global, trading nation.'

She promised that the International Trade Secretary Liam Fox will lead the charge to strike new trade deals with the likes of China, Brazil, the US and the Commonwealth.

10. To make Britain the best place for science and innovation

Mrs May said her vision of 'global Britain' must also be a country that looks to the future'.
'That means being one of the best places in the world for science and innovation,' she said as she promised not to cut back but to deepen our collaboration with our European partners on major science, research and technology initiatives.

11. Cooperation to fight terrorism

She also pledged that leaving the EU will not mean any weakening of our partnership with Europe on fighting crime and terrorism.
Terrorism is a threat that cannot be dealt with bilaterally and Europe must 'face the challenge of cross-border crime, a deadly terrorist threat, and the dangers presented by hostile states' together, Mrs May said.

This would mean our authorities continuing to share intelligence material with our EU allies, as well as a keeping the united resistance to Russian aggression whether through sanctions of through the Nato military alliance.

12. A 'smooth, orderly Brexit'

Finally, the Prime Minister promised that she will pursue all of her objectives in a 'smooth and orderly' approach in the negotiations.

She promised to protect business from a 'cliff-edge' scenario where they are left stranded in a regulatory no man's land.

Instead, she promised a 'phased process of implementation,' where institutions in Britain, Brussels and EU member states prepare for the new arrangements and give businesses enough time to plan and prepare for the new partnerships.

'This might be about our immigration controls, customs systems or the way in which we cooperate on criminal justice matters.

'Or it might be about the future legal and regulatory framework for financial services. For each issue, the time we need to phase-in the new arrangements may differ. Some might be introduced very quickly, some might take longer. And the interim arrangements we rely upon are likely to be a matter of negotiation.

'But the purpose is clear: we will seek to avoid a disruptive cliff-edge, and we will do everything we can to phase in the new arrangements we require as Britain and the EU move towards our new partnership.'


Is that it? how disappointing as there will be no more control over our borders that there is now.
We don't have the money or the industry to compete with the Isle of Wight
if we're lucky the EU will feed us some scraps to keep London going till they relocate the finance centre to Frankfurt.

Let's cut this down to a few bullet points

  • The government wants to have the power to legally oppress the people
  • It thinks that a fictional promise to control immigration will do as it has no intention of being serious on that for Profit reasons
  • Our borders will not be protected as it costs too much
  • London will continue for a while till the business moves to Frankfurt
  • We will continue trading with the EU on terms they dictate as we are years away from being able to replace that trade
  • World trade is on a "Downward Spiral" said Davis, don't blame Brexit when the economy takes a nose dive!
So there you have it we are to become vassal of the EU, obeying rules and laws we can't change to keep the trade when we were one of it masters and guided it's fate.
A triumph for crass stupidity.
How many of the 17 million who voted for it will be taken in and applaud?
What happened to Brexit is Brexit?

This must be one of the craziest white papers of all time, it sounds like a surrender document, literally sacrificing a safe future for no justifiable reason other than to satisfy two groups
  1. Those of the ruling elite who see a sell off of our assets and a chance to profit thereby, at the same time reducing the rights of the Public in work, health benefits and freedom back to the dark days of the industrial revolution.
  2. To fob off the general public that their complaints have been listened to and acted on, when in fact the Government now has them by "The short and curlies" and can do what it likes with them, far from controlling the Government, it has increased it's grip on them!
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,263
30,652
4. No hard border in Ireland

It means the years of open borders between Britain and the 27 other EU member states will be slammed shut when we cut ties with Brussels.
She's very confused, Ireland is one of the 27 so the above is impossible. And keeping free travel between EU member the Irish Republic and Ulster with no border control means no control over immigration from the rest of the EU.
.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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She's very confused, Ireland is one of the 27 so the above is impossible. And keeping free travel between EU member the Irish Republic and Ulster with no border control means no control over immigration from the rest of the EU.
.
You're right of course, but not supposed to notice that!
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
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I understand the first three being wanted by you, but why the Human Rights Act which has done so much good and prevented so much that is wrong?

None of those opposing it now said anything against it until David Cameron had his rant, wanting his Bill of Rights. Lack of rights more likely, doubtless engineered to let him abuse at will.

In any case, losing the Human Rights Act won't necessarily have the effect he wanted, since there's the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights backing up our act.
.
I think the Human Rights Act has past its sell by date. It was created with all good intentions and no one can argue with that. However, it has been abused and is no longer fit for purpose. Only today a piece of dirt which operates under the name of Phil Shiner has been convicted of abusing human rights legislation for financial gain. There are other well publicised cases of the act being abused.

I think it's time a review took place and adjustments made to close down the abuse.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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A fascinating insight into how the right wing press try to distort the public reaction to Brexit is to note how many times they crow that some conspiracy against the will of the people has been reported and "Slapped Down" or some such nonsense, as it it is threatened by a plot that is everywhere.

This is of course easy to disprove; google something like this
Group to organise re application to join the EU
Or to thwart Brexit.
All you will get it that people Like Richard Branson spoke out against it, but didn't put any money forward.

The truth is that like me, those who oppose this madness are waiting for the elastic to run out on the Bungee cord is hangs from and people realise it is dangling helplessly.

Then will be the time to begin the climb back to sanity, at the end of the lesson not the beginning
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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I think the Human Rights Act has past its sell by date. It was created with all good intentions and no one can argue with that. However, it has been abused and is no longer fit for purpose. Only today a piece of dirt which operates under the name of Phil Shiner has been convicted of abusing human rights legislation for financial gain. There are other well publicised cases of the act being abused.

I think it's time a review took place and adjustments made to close down the abuse.
Shiner is acknowledged as having conducted some successful and fully justified cases against the army. The fact that he later adopted criminal ways of obtaining false evidence is a red herring, since that can be done with any law whatsover, no matter how it is amended.

And the abuse of the Human Rights Act that's complained of in general is that it's turned to for protection, most frequently by an appeal following a conviction or court order. The only way that can be stopped is to remove any right of appeal. That is just wrong.

There is no possible justification for removing the Human Rights Act, other than to abuse.
.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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I think the Human Rights Act has past its sell by date. It was created with all good intentions and no one can argue with that. However, it has been abused and is no longer fit for purpose. Only today a piece of dirt which operates under the name of Phil Shiner has been convicted of abusing human rights legislation for financial gain. There are other well publicised cases of the act being abused.

I think it's time a review took place and adjustments made to close down the abuse.
How to destroy your own argument!
"Only today a piece of dirt which operates under the name of Phil Shiner has been convicted of abusing human rights legislation for financial gain."

How could he have been convicted of anything if he wasn't guilty of something? and why should you change the act rather than ENACT the law?
Come on tillson, that's just daft.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Shiner is acknowledged as having conducted some successful and fully justified cases against the army. The fact that he later adopted criminal ways of obtaining false evidence is a red herring, since that can be done with any law whatsover, no matter how it is amended.

And the abuse of the Human Rights Act that's complained of in general is that it's turned to for protection, most frequently by an appeal following a conviction or court order. The only way that can be stopped is to remove any right of appeal. That is just wrong.

There is no possible justification for removing the Human Rights Act, other than to abuse.
.
tillson has to support changing it, it's part of the Brexit "Holy writ"
logic and common sense can't compete with that.
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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More egg on face for Carney the Clown and the remain doom mongers. UK growth forecast up from 0.8% to 2%. Only a 150% error. At least all of these predictions of doom are consistent, consistently wrong that is.
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
3,197
Shiner is acknowledged as having conducted some successful and fully justified cases against the army. The fact that he later adopted criminal ways of obtaining false evidence is a red herring, since that can be done with any law whatsover, no matter how it is amended.

And the abuse of the Human Rights Act that's complained of in general is that it's turned to for protection, most frequently by an appeal following a conviction or court order. The only way that can be stopped is to remove any right of appeal. That is just wrong.

There is no possible justification for removing the Human Rights Act, other than to abuse.
.
Sorry, I meant to say struck off, not convicted.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,453
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Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
She's very confused, Ireland is one of the 27 so the above is impossible. And keeping free travel between EU member the Irish Republic and Ulster with no border control means no control over immigration from the rest of the EU.
.
She may be thinking of a new hard border between NI and UK mainland.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,263
30,652
She may be thinking of a new hard border between NI and UK mainland.
I think the unionists would have something to say about that!

Anything that even hints at any separation from the UK is anathema to them. That the loyalists would probably celebrate such a move could only fan the flames.

The sensitivities there are extraordinary in their scope and intensity.
.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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More egg on face for Carney the Clown and the remain doom mongers. UK growth forecast up from 0.8% to 2%. Only a 150% error. At least all of these predictions of doom are consistent, consistently wrong that is.
Big Deal!
"
Today’s predictions offer little relief for millions of families on low incomes. The Bank of England forecasts pay will rise by 3.25% in 2018, barely above predicted inflation of 2.8%. This means that most people struggling now will still be struggling in a year’s time.

The good news is that the economy is also predicted to grow by 2%, which is more than previously expected. But economic trends over recent years show that people on lower incomes can’t rely on economic growth alone to raise their living standards.

“Less wealthy families spend more of their income on basics like the weekly shop, meaning that they are hit harder by rising prices. People in the bottom fifth of the income scale typically spend £1 in every £6 on food, compared with £1 in every £12 for the richest fifth.

“If we are serious about helping people who are just about managing, then we need to get to grips with the high cost of living, which tips millions of people into poverty.”

Come back when you have some good news for the people not just the well off, there's a good chap
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
One of the heroes of the racist conglomerate so beloved by the 'Brexit' camp has been caught out lying. No surprise there and in any case, the 'Brexidiots' really don't mind being lied to - they have accepted nothing else from the very start!

It is appalling though that his lying merits a blue plaque from English Heritage........

170202-Nuttall-plaque.jpg

Tom:eek:
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,453
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Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Come back when you have some good news for the people not just the well off,
I agree that brexit will benefit the wealthy first.
I think a couple of years on, unemployment for the young will improve.
There is not much economic benefit for the old. If anything, pressure on the NHS may worsen.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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I agree that brexit will benefit the wealthy first.
I think a couple of years on, unemployment for the young will improve.
There is not much economic benefit for the old. If anything, pressure on the NHS may worsen.
Reasons to be cheerful? remind me to laugh when I die of neglect
 
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