Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Does anyone believe him?

Johnson departed from recent US rhetoric by saying it was still unclear what Russian president Vladimir Putin was going to do. The prime minister said he hopes diplomacy will succeed, but the world needs to be “unflinchingly honest” about the Russian threat – and the huge build-up of troops and naval power on Ukraine’s borders.
They all make me sick. Bliden, Macron, Johnson, all interfering in what is Russia's own business in its own backyard and saying Russia has no right to act there in its security interests.

It was a very different story from the USA when Russia tried to put missiles into Cuba, an independent country near their border. Then it was somehow magically ok for them to interfere with threats of extreme military force.
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Danidl

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Sep 29, 2016
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Does anyone believe him?

Johnson departed from recent US rhetoric by saying it was still unclear what Russian president Vladimir Putin was going to do. The prime minister said he hopes diplomacy will succeed, but the world needs to be “unflinchingly honest” about the Russian threat – and the huge build-up of troops and naval power on Ukraine’s borders.
On this topic, if no other, I believe Johnson.
 

Danidl

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They all make me sick. Bliden, Macron, Johnson, all interfering in what is Russia's own business in its own backyard and saying Russian has no right to act there in its security interests.

It was a very different story from the USA when Russia tried to put missiles into Cuba, an independent country near their border. Then it was somehow magically ok for them to interfere with threats of extreme military force.
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I think that unreasonable expectations were raised in Ukraine regarding NATO by USA neocons , and what is happening now is a direct consequence. Having a neutral buffer zone made more sense...
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I think that unreasonable expectations were raised in Ukraine regarding NATO by USA neocons , and what is happening now is a direct consequence. Having a neutral buffer zone made more sense...
Indeed it does. I was very disappointed that the ex Warsaw pact countries were deliberately pursued by the EU with US backing to become EU members and NATO members.

It would have been so much better for them to have formed their own trading and defence bloc with financial assistance to do that from the USA, EU and later Russia once they had settled post USSR.

That independent bloc with ties to both sides would have been a valuable diplomatic and military buffer zone in all parties interests.
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jonathan.agnew

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Indeed it does. I was very disappointed that the ex Warsaw pact countries were deliberately pursued by the EU with US backing to become EU members and NATO members.

It would have been so much better for them to have formed their own trading and defence bloc with financial assistance to do that from the USA, EU and later Russia once they had settled post USSR.

That independent bloc with ties to both sides would have been a valuable diplomatic and military buffer zone in all parties interests.
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Rationally, intrinsically yes. But of course all of them (putin as much as macron, Biden, Boris et Al are acting on extrinsic ulterior motives - boris, like a flagging unpopular Biden is probably desperately, deeply, eternally grateful to putin for the lifeline of a distraction of an enemy out there). But bizarrely I think putin is miscalculating - assuming the weakness, paralysis of the west in Syria, Afghanistan mean it will belly up about Ukraine, when Boris and Biden et Al could probably really do with an apparently valid war.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I think putin is miscalculating - assuming the weakness, paralysis of the west in Syria, Afghanistan mean it will belly up about Ukraine, when Boris and Biden et Al could probably really do with an apparently valid war.
I don't think there is the slightest chance of the West getting militarily involved in a war over the Ukraine. They know Ukraine has long been a lost cause which is why they did nothing about Russia's acquisition of the Crimea. That their all important Southern fleet is based there in the Black Sea means the Russians will fight to the death to defend it, so the cost of any war with them on this issue is too great to contemplate.

The American public won't stand for a costly war there and the EU won't either since they long ago abandoned their former ambition of Ukraine joining the EU. Doing so is in truth now only a Ukrainian dream, not realising the EU will no longer accept them.

And of course the daftest thing the Ukraine could ever do is apply to join NATO, since that would prompt an immediate Russian invasion and takeover.
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oyster

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Sums up the tories:

The ultra-rich Tory donors with access to Boris Johnson’s top team

In return for a £250,000 donation to the Conservatives, multimillionaires are being ushered into the heart of government as part of a secret ‘advisory board’
Shortly before Christmas, a photograph taken in the Downing Street garden emerged that was felt by many to epitomise a prevailing attitude at the heart of government. Taken on May 15, 2020, it showed Boris Johnson, his fiancée Carrie Symonds and groups of his top staff enjoying wine and cheese at the height of lockdown.

It can now be revealed that another previously unreported event was taking place on the same day inside No 10, one which perhaps offers a starker illustration of the way power works.


Sadly, that is as much as a non-subscriber can read.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,213
30,611
Sums up the tories:

The ultra-rich Tory donors with access to Boris Johnson’s top team

In return for a £250,000 donation to the Conservatives, multimillionaires are being ushered into the heart of government as part of a secret ‘advisory board’
Shortly before Christmas, a photograph taken in the Downing Street garden emerged that was felt by many to epitomise a prevailing attitude at the heart of government. Taken on May 15, 2020, it showed Boris Johnson, his fiancée Carrie Symonds and groups of his top staff enjoying wine and cheese at the height of lockdown.

It can now be revealed that another previously unreported event was taking place on the same day inside No 10, one which perhaps offers a starker illustration of the way power works.


Sadly, that is as much as a non-subscriber can read.
In fairness this is the Tory equivalent of Callaghan letting the unions into number 10 to run the country in the 1970s.

They're all as bad.
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oyster

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 7, 2017
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Sums up the tories:

The ultra-rich Tory donors with access to Boris Johnson’s top team

In return for a £250,000 donation to the Conservatives, multimillionaires are being ushered into the heart of government as part of a secret ‘advisory board’
Shortly before Christmas, a photograph taken in the Downing Street garden emerged that was felt by many to epitomise a prevailing attitude at the heart of government. Taken on May 15, 2020, it showed Boris Johnson, his fiancée Carrie Symonds and groups of his top staff enjoying wine and cheese at the height of lockdown.

It can now be revealed that another previously unreported event was taking place on the same day inside No 10, one which perhaps offers a starker illustration of the way power works.


Sadly, that is as much as a non-subscriber can read.
We know the unions. We know their leaders. And I doubt they could have contributed financially on anything like the same scale.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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We know the unions. We know their leaders. And I doubt they could have contributed financially on anything like the same scale.
Ultimately it's more about influence than money and the unions in 10 Downing Street in the '70s was just as bad an abuse.

We didn't elect them or the wealthy.
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guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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Sums up the tories:

The ultra-rich Tory donors with access to Boris Johnson’s top team


In return for a £250,000 donation to the Conservatives, multimillionaires are being ushered into the heart of government as part of a secret ‘advisory board’
Shortly before Christmas, a photograph taken in the Downing Street garden emerged that was felt by many to epitomise a prevailing attitude at the heart of government. Taken on May 15, 2020, it showed Boris Johnson, his fiancée Carrie Symonds and groups of his top staff enjoying wine and cheese at the height of lockdown.

It can now be revealed that another previously unreported event was taking place on the same day inside No 10, one which perhaps offers a starker illustration of the way power works.


Sadly, that is as much as a non-subscriber can read.
I found a link to the entire archived article, but daren't post it directly - copyright infringement issues. It was posted somewhere in the link below, but be aware that viewing the article requires completion of a captcha, which uniquely identifies you:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/swga8h

There's a group which works in the same way over the pond. Cash for power arrangements like this are becoming de rigueur for conservatives. The super rich are bored: they'll rule this planet and/or escape.
 
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oyster

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Ultimately it's more about influence than money and the unions in 10 Downing Street in the '70s was just as bad an abuse.

We didn't elect them or the wealthy.
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Someone elected TU leaders - even if their arcane rules meant that some were effectively in the job for life.

And TU threats seem tame compared with continually offering large sums so as to be able to threaten not giving in future.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,213
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Someone elected TU leaders - even if their arcane rules meant that some were effectively in the job for life.

And TU threats seem tame compared with continually offering large sums so as to be able to threaten not giving in future.
The electorate didn't elect them and there was nothing tame about them. The trade unions became one of the greatest evils this country has ever faced following WW2. With never ending streams of often totally unjustified strikes they brought some of our key industries to closure and this country almost to its knees at times, culminating with even the refuse collectors having a national strike in 1969.

And worst of all, they ruined the reputation of the Labour party as one that could be relied upon to govern, undoing all the good that Clement Attlee had done to establish the party at the forefront of UK politics.

As important as trade unionism was at one time, my hatred of the unions from that period led me to prevent any unionisation of the last two companies I worked for in management. Far from damaging the status of their employees, that substantially improved it over unionised companies elsewhere.

Many of our UK trade unions are living in the past and need to substantially reform to improve the lot of their members. The days when the most suitable trade union leader was the loudest mouthed yob are long gone. Today's best trade union leaders are those who work in partnership with management towards the best end for all involved, workers, management and shareholders, profitting them all and most of all, the country.
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jonathan.agnew

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Dec 27, 2018
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The electorate didn't elect them and there was nothing tame about them. The trade unions became one of the greatest evils this country has ever faced following WW2. With never ending streams of often totally unjustified strikes they brought some of our key industries to closure and this country almost to its knees at times, culminating with even the refuse collectors having a national strike in 1969.

And worst of all, they ruined the reputation of the Labour party as one that could be relied upon to govern, undoing all the good that Clement Attlee had done to establish the party at the forefront of UK politics.

As important as trade unionism was at one time, my hatred of the unions from that period led me to prevent any unionisation of the last two companies I worked for in management. Far from damaging the status of their employees, that substantially improved it over unionised companies elsewhere.

Many of our UK trade unions are living in the past and need to substantially reform to improve the lot of their members. The days when the most suitable trade union leader was the loudest mouthed yob are long gone. Today's best trade union leaders are those who work in partnership with management towards the best end for all involved, workers, management and shareholders, profitting them all and most of all, the country.
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Not really. British Leyland, for example, failed as a result of utterly inept bickering management (engaging in catastrophic, disastrous amalgamations). And launching mediocre products into a competitive market. When I say mediocre I mean steaming heaps of **** like the austin allegro.
The disastrous decline of UK industry has very much been about loud mouthed yobs in management. Our failure to deliver, in any walk of life - whether water, rail, energy or manufacturing very much a function of lack of leadership.
The average British industry (service or manufacturing) looks a lot like our politics. About inept uninformed management making destructive self serving decisions.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Not really. British Leyland, for example, failed as a result of utterly inept bickering management (engaging in catastrophic, disastrous amalgamations). And launching mediocre products into a competitive market. When I say mediocre I mean steaming heaps of **** like the austin allegro.
The disastrous decline of UK industry has very much been about loud mouthed yobs in management. Our failure to deliver, in any walk of life - whether water, rail, energy or manufacturing very much a function of lack of leadership.
The average British industry (service or manufacturing) looks a lot like our politics. About inept uninformed management making destructive self serving decisions.
I'm not disagreeing at all, but it took two to make the problem, neither of them anywhere good enough to partake in the management of the country.

My reply was strongly disagreeing with Oyster about the suitability of the Trade Union leaders to be sharing the running of the country with Callaghan. They weren't, not even beginning to know how to do their own much simpler job of being effective trade union leaders.

It takes both sides performing well for a country to succeed, as Germany has so clearly shown.
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oyster

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 7, 2017
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I see tomorrow's headlines are dominated by HMQ continuing to do light duties despite Covid.

Is it all set up to point out how lazy Johnson was for taking time off when he had it?
 

guerney

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Sep 7, 2021
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