Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

It's all very well you objecting to living with Covid,

I don't object to covid, just want to know what it means to live with it and if the NHS is still be there a year from now.
Talk of us prepared to accept 100,000 new cases and 200 deaths a day, 6 millions waiting for hospital treatment etc don't inspire confidence.

 

[oyster]

The bizarre machinations round mask wearing, the law and transport should defy belief. Minister agreeing with London mayor that wearing them on transport can be legally enforced while abandoning legal requirements to wear them...

 

[oldgroaner]

The biggest and most deadly problem is a total lack of leadership. Boris Johnson is effectively holding the pub door open whilst simultaneously saying to people, I wouldn’t go in there, it’s dangerous. People don’t really know what to do. Boris Johnson says, wear a mask in confined spaces, and then less than 24 hours later he’s seen in a car containing 4 people and he’s the only one not wearing a mask.

What we need is very clear guidance, best practice set out. That needs to be reinforced with impeccable behaviour by those issuing the guidance. We aren’t getting either. It’s all garbled & confused messaging set against a backdrop of a most vile display of double standards.

Laws are useless, clear guidance and leadership from the front works best.

If you wanted Johnson to show impeccable behavior you would have to wire his balls to a shocking coil and walk behind him with the switch for it in your hand.
There would be plenty of volunteers for that job

 

[flecc]

The bizarre machinations round mask wearing, the law and transport should defy belief. Minister agreeing with London mayor that wearing them on transport can be legally enforced while abandoning legal requirements to wear them...

Actually not bizarre at all.

Either TfL or the bus companies can insist on it and that is legally enforceable. It's their buses so they make the rules for using them, no national law needed.

Exactly the same goes for shops, they can make their rules for entry and use.

All legally enforceable if any member of the public defies them, enabling the assistance of the police to be called upon and court actions if they still do not co-operate.
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[flecc]

I don't object to covid, just want to know what it means to live with it

I can help there.

Long ago George Stephenson demonstrate his locomotive and it killed a man who carelessly stepped in front of it. Railways went on to kill large numbers for a while.

Over 100 years ago a car was demonstrated in England for the first time and a careless woman did the same and became the first car death here. Road traffic went on to kill huge numbers.

In both cases the authorities did what they could to minimise the deaths with advice and infrastructure, but ultimately it came down to the publc learning to respect the danger and act accordingly. i.e. Learning to live with them.

With Covid it's no different, we are currently still in the high deaths phase, but as they rise the public will learn to respect it out of fear and protect themselves better, just as they did with transport.

Meanwhile you and I have to accept there will be more deaths, probably lots of them.

and if the NHS is still be there a year from now.

Of course it will be, but like last time greatly diminished until Covid is under control. Again we have to accept that and the possibility it will cost us our own lives. I have, life has no fixed term that we are entitled to, every life is a complete life, no matter how long or short it is.

Talk of us prepared to accept 100,000 new cases and 200 deaths a day, 6 millions waiting for hospital treatment etc don't inspire confidence.

Good, just what we need. All part of the fear we need the public to suffer to learn to behave well enough. At present they are too complacent.
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[oldgroaner]

Another dastardly plot by the EU

I wonder if the Express is aware that Norway isn't a member of the EU and voted against joining three times?

 

[oldgroaner]

In both cases the authorities did what they could to minimise the deaths with advice and infrastructure, but ultimately it came down to the publc learning to respect the danger and act accordingly. i.e. Learning to live with them.

Not quite true is it?
People like this chap caused a big change of attitude
Ralph Nader (/ˈneɪdər/; born February 27, 1934)[1] is an American political activist, author, lecturer, and attorney noted for his involvement in consumer protection, environmentalism, and government reform causes.
The son of Lebanese immigrants to the United States, Nader attended Princeton University and Harvard Law School. He first came to prominence in 1965 with the publication of the bestselling book Unsafe at Any Speed, a highly influential critique of the safety record of American automobile manufacturers.

 

[oldgroaner]

I can help there.

Long ago George Stephenson demonstrate his locomotive and it killed a man who carelessly stepped in front of it. Railways went on to kill large numbers for a while.

Over 100 years ago a car was demonstrated in England for the first time and a careless woman did the same and became the first car death here. Road traffic went on to kill huge numbers.

In both cases the authorities did what they could to minimise the deaths with advice and infrastructure, but ultimately it came down to the publc learning to respect the danger and act accordingly. i.e. Learning to live with them.

With Covid it's no different, we are currently still in the high deaths phase, but as they rise the public will learn to respect it out of fear and protect themselves better, just as they did with transport.

Meanwhile you and I have to accept there will be more deaths, probably lots of them.



Of course it will be, but like last time greatly diminished until Covid is under control. Again we have to accept that and the possibility it will cost us our own lives. I have, life has no fixed term that we are entitled to, every life is a complete life, no matter how long or short it is.



Good, just what we need. All part of the fear we need the public to suffer to learn to behave well enough. At present they are too complacent.
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You really don't need to try so hard to get that seat by the fire flecc I'm sure that like me you've done enough already
(mind you we might get the seats behind JHC as he voted for this lot!)

 

[flecc]

You really don't need to try so hard to get that seat by the fire flecc I'm sure that like me you've done enough already
(mind you we might get the seats behind JHC as he voted for this lot!)

I object your Funny emogee, I'm posting realistic answers and alI get in response is criticism. Criticism without an alternative answer to the problem is pointless,

You have no answer to Covid so you'll have to live with it. That might mean lots of things, but funny isn't one of them.
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[flecc]

Not quite true is it?
People like this chap caused a big change of attitude
Ralph Nader (/ˈneɪdər/; born February 27, 1934)[1] is an American political activist, author, lecturer, and attorney noted for his involvement in consumer protection, environmentalism, and government reform causes.
The son of Lebanese immigrants to the United States, Nader attended Princeton University and Harvard Law School. He first came to prominence in 1965 with the publication of the bestselling book Unsafe at Any Speed, a highly influential critique of the safety record of American automobile manufacturers.

Once again, all you do is attack and criticise, with nonsense too. Nader was a self publicist who did next to nothing to improve road safety with his emphasis on symptoms. It was many years later when the authorities brought about the radical reductions in deaths and serious injuries by radically reducing the numbers of accidents, dealing with the causes and not the symptoms.

Europe led in that thanks to the leadership of the EU in bullying member countries to act. Through their pressure on us it lead to us cutting our deaths to under a third when the number of vehicles on our roads tripled from 1970 to date, so cut to one ninth of the deaths there would have been. Similar happened in the other member countries. Europe set that example to the world and the world followed.

The USA later improved, but to nothing like the same degree and they still mass produce some of the most dangerous vehicles on the roads. Like their high slung 4 x 4 pickups and similar which are rightly criticised there for causing so many rollover accidents. So much for Nader's influence.
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[Danidl]

I object your Funny emogee, I'm posting realistic answers and alI get in response is criticism. Criticism without an alternative answer to the problem is pointless,

You have no answer to Covid so you'll have to live with it. That might mean lots of things, but funny isn't one of them.
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Flecc. Actually we still do have a potential strategy for ridding the world of Covid. It is quarantine The hope that it would be a vaccine was ill-founded. A strategy which has worked for 3000 years and still works. That is the tragedy. Our failure to follow the Chinese /Far East example has unleashed . However because resources have been squandered including moral authority, the UK have blown their chance. It is very hard to see where it can be recovered from .. but maybe Bidens USA and Canada could. We could theoretically start in Ireland , but while NI remains in thrall, that border is too porous.

 

[Danidl]

On a more positive note, Dublin has taken delivery of 3 hydrogen fuel celled double decker buses , with a 400 km range. They will be used on major suburban / semi rural route The hydrogen will be electroylised ..water There are very few double decker buses using hydrogen yet

 

[flecc]

Our failure to follow the Chinese /Far East example has unleashed . However because resources have been squandered including moral authority, the UK have blown their chance.

Of course, which is why I dont mention it. There's no point dwelling on what's been done.

I'm posting about the one option left at present, the one that lies in the hands of the public. It's not a good option but it's all we have.
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[flecc]

On a more positive note, Dublin has taken delivery of 3 hydrogen fuel celled double decker buses , with a 400 km range. They will be used on major suburban / semi rural route The hydrogen will be electroylised ..water There are very few double decker buses using hydrogen yet

Yes I knew of this. Within the same Europe wide JIVE scheme, London and Birmingham are getting 20 double deckers each and Aberdeen 15 of them.

London led the field some 13 years ago with 8 hydrogen fuel cell Mercedes single deckers. but you can see how slow the progress is from that time gap, despite our hydrogen advantage in London. It's produced at Air Liquide’s plant in Runcorn, harnessing waste hydrogen as a by-product from an industrial chlor-alkali plant. Oxford-based Ryze Hydrogen is responsible for transporting the fuel to the fuelling station. From 2023, the Mayoral Office expects the hydrogen to be even greener as it will be produced by electrolysis powered by a direct connection to an offshore windfarm.

Hopefully the expansion will be better this time:

The JIVE project says it seeks to deploy 139 new fuel cell buses and associated refuelling infrastructure across five European countries and has received funding from the Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking. With JIVE II, the initiative now aims to deploy nearly 300 hydrogen-powered buses. As well as cities in the UK, municipalities in Germany, France, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Iceland are also taking part.

Of course even after all that it's still peanuts. TfL in London alone runs over 9000 buses and we have over 500 battery electric ones.
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[jonathan.agnew]

Of course, which is why I dont mention it. There's no point dwelling on what's been done.

I'm posting about the one option left at present, the one that lies in the hands of the public. It's not a good option but it's all we have.
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That is a bit like asking for volunteers to go and fight during ww2 Flecc (as opposed to passing a new law and conscription everyone as happened). I don't only think there is point in dwelling on quarantine, I think were bound to, as before after boris' previous spikes and deaths, as new variants that escape vaccines emerge (as they will)

 

[flecc]

That is a bit like asking for volunteers to go and fight during ww2 Flecc (as opposed to passing a new law and conscription everyone as happened). I don't only think there is point in dwelling on quarantine, I think were bound to, as before after boris' previous spikes and deaths, as new variants that escape vaccines emerge (as they will)

So again no answer!

Of course quarantine will come into play from time to time, but it hasn't worked well as a policy so far, has it?

Ultimately only the public themselves have the answer, and lots of them will have to die before they finally wake up and realise that. Quarantine won't be needed for those who do, since they won't want to go to where the infection is rife.
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[jonathan.agnew]

So again no answer!

Of course quarantine will come into play from time to time, but it hasn't worked well as a policy so far, has it?

Ultimately only the public themselves have the answer, and lots of them will have to die before they finally wake up and realise that. Quarantine won't be needed for those who do, since they won't want to go to where the infection is rife.
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There is an obvious answer - strictly enforced distancing as part of a new different social and economic way of interacting. Probably (not unlike ww2) for a number of years. But this wouldn't sit well with tory party donors(and some voters) who have a tradition of sacrificing the lives (and livelihoods) of the many for the benefit of the few.

 

[flecc]

There is an obvious answer - strictly enforced distancing

Again it's what we've already been doing and it hasn't worked, nor will it if attempted again.

We don't have the resources to achieve full enforcement or anything remotely like it. And today's public are very different from the conformist 1940s, they'll just say "Foreign Office" to anyone who tries. Your comparison with WW2 conscription illustrates, volunteers were enough in WW1 but times and people change as they learn better.

Look at what happened when the police tried to intervene in a female demonstration of a couple of hundred to enforce separation. They not only defied the police and got the media on their side, they followed with a two thousand strong shoulder to shoulder sit down demo in Trafalgar Square, leaving the police helpless.

I repeat, all we are left with is the public co-operation route in response to real fear. They can control Covid once they get frightened enough, so we shouldn't keep softening that message by hyping vaccines and exaggerating what we are achieving, making them think there's not much of a problem.

Tell the truth, we have no answers at present so only you can protect yourself by everyone co-operating with the necessary protections.
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[jonathan.agnew]

Again it's what we've already been doing and it hasn't worked, nor will it if attempted again.

We don't have the resources to achieve full enforcement or anything remotely like it. And today's public are very different from the conformist 1940s, they'll just say "Foreign Office" to anyone who tries. Your comparison with WW2 conscription illustrates, volunteers were enough in WW1 but times and people change as they learn better.

Look at what happened when the police tried to intervene in a female demonstration of a couple of hundred to enforce separation. They not only defied the police and got the media on their side, they followed with a two thousand strong shoulder to shoulder sit down demo in Trafalgar Square, leaving the police helpless.

I repeat, all we are left with is the public co-operation route in response to real fear. They can control Covid once they get frightened enough, so we shouldn't keep softening that message by hyping vaccines and exaggerating what we are achieving, making them think there's not much of a problem.

Tell the truth, we have no answers at present so only you can protect yourself by everyone co-operating with the necessary protections.
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That's approaching it as a war of attrition, which it doesnt have to be. Japan, effectively, cancelled the Olympics (or any income from it) by banning visitors
There are choices. The ones they make explain their much lower infection, death (and mutation) rate. Our tory government are making the wrong decisions (ad hoc opening up through boris' doubletalk) for the wrong reasons (short term financial gain)

 

[flecc]

That's approaching it as a war of attrition, which it doesnt have to be. Japan, effectively, cancelled the Olympics (or any income from it) by banning visitors
There are choices. The ones they make explain their much lower infection, death (and mutation) rate. Our tory government are making the wrong decisions (ad hoc opening up through boris' doubletalk) for the wrong reasons (short term financial gain)

So just criticising and repeating the problem with no real answer again. Please read my post again and try to understand it. We've proved we cannot do enforcement of the type you suggest, goodness knows we've tried hard enough, heavy handed policing including roughing up women and even £10,000 fines.

Otherwise blinkers on and just keep going round in circles getting nowhere.
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