Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Good points. Shows how difficult a situation they are in... Or we are in.

Indeed, Proportional Representation would solve the immediate problem and allow us to have all types of party sharing power by agreement.

The problem is how to get that. I think the only hope is if a weakened Labour, realising they cannot win again, join forces with the Lib-Dems, SNP and all others in the house to vote in PR against a future not as strong Tory government.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Common Criticisms of PR and Responses to Them - FairVote

www.fairvote.org

Depends which side of argument you settle for?
Looking at our situation at moment and our one party system think I, d tend towards agreeing with you. In past always thought PR could lead to destabilised governments (Italy) but there are successful examples within EU... Perhaps time to try it..
BTW the article is very good, explains pros and cons very well with no bias either way.
(it's very USA centred though, but principles same)

 

[sjpt]

Common Criticisms of PR and Responses to Them - FairVote

www.fairvote.org

Depends which side of argument you settle for?
Looking at our situation at moment and our one party system think I, d tend towards agreeing with you. In past always thought PR could lead to destabilised governments (Italy) but there are successful examples within EU... Perhaps time to try it..

Which is worse, an unstable government, or a stable but dysfunctional one?

 

[flecc]

Which is worse, an unstable government, or a stable but dysfunctional one?

Stable people have stable PR governments.

Germany's has been very stable.

Italy's the opposite because that's how they like it.

PR in Britain would be like Germany's.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Which is worse, an unstable government, or a stable but dysfunctional one?

There are many would argue we haven't got a dysfunctional government. That's purely subjective... Its the system putting it there under question. We don't really have a choice at moment. It's Tories or... Tories.. (either disguised as Labour..ie Blair or Tories)
We don't really have a democracy. I see that even though actually supportive of current government.

 

[flecc]

There are many would argue we haven't got a dysfunctional government. That's purely subjective... Its the system putting it there under question. We don't really have a choice at moment. It's Tories or... Tories.. (either disguised as Labour..ie Blair or Tories)
We don't really have a democracy. I see that even though actually supportive of current government.

In one sense I dont mind what we've got, since it's a Tory government following two of Labour's announced main policies of large scale investment in the future and government control of rail.

I'm more concerned about how it could develop over time.
.

 

[Zlatan]

In one sense I dont mind what we've got, since it's a Tory government following two of Labour's announced main policies of large scale investment in the future and government control of rail.

I'm more concerned about how it could develop over time.
.

Agreed. If Tories do end up with a complete monopoly on power for another 20 years I wonder where we, ll end up.

 

[flecc]

Agreed. If Tories do end up with a complete monopoly on power for another 20 years I wonder where we, ll end up.

Abroad?!
.

 

[oyster]

There are many would argue we haven't got a dysfunctional government. That's purely subjective... Its the system putting it there under question. We don't really have a choice at moment. It's Tories or... Tories.. (either disguised as Labour..ie Blair or Tories)
We don't really have a democracy. I see that even though actually supportive of current government.

Even if you agree with their policies, I don't see how a single person in the country could trust them. Not with the records of Johnson and Patel for starters.

 

[oyster]

Interesting changes afoot already!

8th May, 2021, 7:07 pm
Angela Rayner sacked as Labour Party chair and national campaign coordinator
https://labourlist.org/2021/05/angela-rayner-sacked-as-labour-party-chair-and-national-campaign-coordinator/

 

[Zlatan]

Even if you agree with their policies, I don't see how a single person in the country could trust them. Not with the records of Johnson and Patel for starters.

Not sure even if that's case it makes them dysfunctional.
Strange thing is this govt has adopted most left wing policies in Tory history. They represent high control,big government with high taxes (or will do to repay covid debts) and actually a level of social care (covid payments, furlough etc) never witnessed before in our history.
Yes, we like to moan but govt have done well with both vaccine roll out and handouts for those adversely affected. Dysfunctional? I don't think so. True to their word... Nope. Trustworthy? Debatable.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Not sure even if that's case it makes them dysfunctional.
Strange thing is this govt has adopted most left wing policies in Tory history. They represent high control,big government with high taxes (or will do to repay covid debts) and actually a level of social care (covid payments, furlough etc) never witnessed before in our history.
Yes, we like to moan but govt have done well with both vaccine roll out and handouts for those adversely affected. Dysfunctional? I don't think so. True to their word... Nope. Trustworthy? Debatable.

In a sense. But out of necessity (furlough to protect businesses and the economy, not people). And right wing - the lifting of lockdown to make money (even if thousands of bodies pile up as boris say). Dysfunctional is an interesting concept. I worked in south africa in the nineties (in a provincial hospital in Kwazulu - a ringside seat for observing society and the impact of political decisions). Mandella had to choose between redistribution (higher taxes to fund services - schools, healthcare etc) and development (lower taxes to appease multinationals). He went for "development" (of multinationals offshore accounts that is, not communities). Now, as a result, south africa is one of the most unequal societies in the world. With a higher murder rate than Afghanistan. But, hey, it's the most developed state in africa (uses almost half the continents electricity). From a conservative perspective it's not dysfunctional, but it's not anywhere anyone wants to live.

 

[Zlatan]

In a sense. But out of necessity (furlough to protect businesses and the economy, not people). And right wing - the lifting of lockdown to make money (even if thousands of bodies pile up as boris say). Dysfunctional is an interesting concept. I worked in south africa in the nineties (in a provincial hospital in Kwazulu - a ringside seat for observing society and the impact of political decisions). Mandella had to choose between redistribution (higher taxes to fund services - schools, healthcare etc) and development (lower taxes to appease multinationals). He went for "development" (of multinationals offshore accounts that is, not communities). Now, as a result, south africa is one of the most unequal societies in the world. With a higher murder rate than Afghanistan. But, hey, it's the most developed state in africa (uses almost half the continents electricity). From a conservative perspective it's not dysfunctional, but it's not anywhere anyone wants to live.

Agreed...
With the proviso, protecting business and the economy you are protecting people.
I, m still in business, of sorts, and selling stuff at moment has never been so easy. People do have cash in their pockets, obviously system could always do more, but in my limited experience government have been generous (for want of a better word) with cash during pandemic. Suspect generations to come will be paying for it but would a labour controlled govt have given any more away? And if they had that only adds to our debts...??

 

[Woosh]

Agreed. If Tories do end up with a complete monopoly on power for another 20 years I wonder where we, ll end up.

unlikely scenario though.
BJ is different compared to other tory leaders in that he is quite willing to borrow to spend.
However, when the pandemic is over, he won't be able to continue that way.
The feelgood factor will disappear when the tab has to stop growing at last year's rate. The bickering will start when conversations about whose tax has to go up start.

 

[daveboy]

Indeed, Proportional Representation would solve the immediate problem and allow us to have all types of party sharing power by agreement.

The problem is how to get that. I think the only hope is if a weakened Labour, realising they cannot win again, join forces with the Lib-Dems, SNP and all others in the house to vote in PR against a future not as strong Tory government.
.

Would PR suit the SNP? Voters in Scotland are less than 10% of the UK (4 million from 48 Million) so if the SNP got every vote in Scotland (impossible) they would get 65 MP's.... more likely to be half that with all the other parties added together...they have 44 MP's at the moment.

 

[Zlatan]

unlikely scenario though.
BJ is different compared to other tory leaders in that he is quite willing to borrow to spend.
However, when the pandemic is over, he won't be able to continue that way.
The feelgood factor will disappear when the tab has to stop growing at last year's rate. The bickering will start when conversations about whose tax has to go up start.

Perhaps that's why we need more than ever a viable party waiting in wings. How bad have Tories got to get before electorate vote for a combination of McCluskey, Corbyn, Blair, Starmer, Unite and Momentum? They are all still in there somewhere prattling around. And, without wanting to sound bitter each of those names is now enough to lose a GE for Labour. All 4 together is a nightmare.
Just for information and putting things in perspective around Labour. They have just lost Sheffield, having hung onto it for a decade, to the Green Party. Rotherham, where it used to be argued, throughout the Scargil/Thatcher years and up until quite recently, we could put Bridlington donkeys in each ward and they would still win if their Rosettes were red.
Twenty of those wards are now Conservative.

 

[Woosh]

Perhaps that's why we need more than ever a viable party waiting in wings. How bad have Tories got to get before electorate vote for a combination of McCluskey, Corbyn, Blair, Starmer, Unite and Momentum? They are all still in there somewhere prattling around. And, without wanting to sound bitter each of those names is now enough to lose a GE for Labour. All 4 together is a nightmare.
Just for information and putting things in perspective around Labour. They have just lost Sheffield, having hung onto it for a decade, to the Green Party. Rotherham, where it used to be argued, throughout the Scargil/Thatcher years and up until quite recently, we could put Bridlington donkeys in each ward and they would still win if their Rosettes were red.
Twenty of those wards are now Conservative.

There are some local factors that amplified the vote swing Labour to conservatives in Hartlepool like the choice of the Labour candidate. Rayner got blamed for that.
I believe most Corbynites will eventually come to support Starmer when they think their chance of being re-elected is improved.
Starmer is the right man for the job. Still, he should bring John McDonnell into his policy unit.

 

[oyster]

There are some local factors that amplified the vote swing Labour to conservatives in Hartlepool like the choice of the Labour candidate. Rayner got blamed for that.
I believe most Corbynites will eventually come to support Starmer when they think their chance of being re-elected is improved.
Starmer is still the right man for the job. Still, he should bring in John McDonell into his policy unit.

I hope so.

 

[Zlatan]

Rotherham: Large Tory gains in council all-out election - BBC News

The Conservatives jumped from zero councillors to 20 in an eventful election at Rotherham Council.

www.bbc.co.uk

What about here?
I never in my wildest dreams thought I,d see this... After Orgreave etc. To this day Thatcher is hated.
Yet Conservatives have gone from zero to 20 wards. If Labour are in decline here they really are on the rocks.



Every picture tells a story.

 

[Woosh]

Rotherham: Large Tory gains in council all-out election - BBC News

The Conservatives jumped from zero councillors to 20 in an eventful election at Rotherham Council.

www.bbc.co.uk

What about here?
I never in my wildest dreams thought I'd see this... After Orgreave etc. To this day Thatcher is hated.
Yet Conservatives have gone from zero to 20 wards. If Labour are in decline here they really are on the rocks.
Every picture tells a story.

their success may well be due to nationalism.
In difficult times, voters tend to lend their support to the government.
let's wait until the next by-election then we'll know how effective Starmer is.
John McDonnell was on Marr's show this morning.
It's clear that the Corbynites are not happy with Starmer and Labour is very divided.