Brexit, for once some facts.

Danidl

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The Oxford AZ vaccine is an “at cost” product, no one profits to any great extent from its use.

The other vaccines make money. Every shot of Oxford vaccine delivered takes money away from the other vaccine producers in the form of a lost sale.

The Covid vaccine industry is going to be massive with colossal profits. Whoever gets the biggest initial foothold and the most of their product in the real world will dominate and harvest the money. The Oxford vaccine supplied at cost and with its easy storage capability is likely to become the dominant product and take away those profits.

Now work out why we have all the bad press and hair trigger eagerness to suspend use of the Oxford vaccine when the others have experienced similar low level / non existent problems.
Brilliant conspiracy theory that. However even on the pages of this illustrious journal, we find that the AZ committment to "at cost" is a time limited endeavour, and post July , those bets are off. I am not including the Oxford Jenner in that.. their commitment is not financial profit driven. AZ is not a charity. They have already had plants purchased and equipped by 1. UK Treasury , 2. US Warp speed ,3. EU funding. In their advanced purchasing contracts
The better way of looking at the" at cost " model , is the promotional opening offers of a new supermarket.
 
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Jesus H Christ

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Brilliant conspiracy theory that. However even on the pages of this illustrious journal, we find that the AZ committment to "at cost" is a time limited endeavour, and post July , those bets are off. I am not including the Oxford Jenner in that.. their commitment is not financial profit driven. AZ is not a charity. They have already had plants purchased and equipped by 1. UK Treasury , 2. US Warp speed ,3. EU funding. In their advanced purchasing contracts
The better way of looking at the" at cost " model , is the promotional opening offers of a new supermarket.
The Oxford vaccine is being supplied at or very close to cost. The others are not. Fact.
 
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Danidl

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Really you should ask that question of the individual European Governments as it has nothing to do with the EU commission.
They must have a reason to refuse a product that is far less expensive than the profit making pfizer vaccine
Just a small point: No vaccine doses have been exported from the UK to the EU, whereas 9 million have come into this country from the EU, plus we are operating an Export embargo on 100 Covid related medicines.

For information this American study is interesting
Local Reactions, Systemic Reactions, Adverse Events, and Serious Adverse Events: Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine
OG, I think the 9 M is an underestimate.. remember all the Pfizer is EU.,and only 11 M AZ vaccinations had been carried out until recently in the UK.
 

Nev

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I heard on the radio this morning that the USA have tens of millions of AZ vaccine sitting in cold storage. We on the other hand are facing a short fall for about a month of supply of the AZ vaccine (still not clear to me what is the cause of this).

The Americans seem to be in no hurry to use the AZ vaccine and their vaccination programme seems to be going fairly well without the need for it. So why don't we ask if we can have several million doses of this unused supply that is currently sitting in their fridges or freezers, which we can then replace once our supplies get back on track in a month or so.
 

Danidl

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The Oxford vaccine is being supplied at cost. The others are not. Fact.
Correction." The AZ vaccine ,using intellectual property from Oxford Jenner is being Currently supplied at cost ." The important word in your sentence is IS .. current time, not future plans.
However none of us here have any knowledge on the funding models for Sputnik, or Sinovac, ..so your "correction" , is at least deficient.
 

Jesus H Christ

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Correction." The AZ vaccine ,using intellectual property from Oxford Jenner is being Currently supplied at cost ." The important word in your sentence is IS .. current time, not future plans.
However none of us here have any knowledge on the funding models for Sputnik, or Sinovac, ..so your "correction" , is at least deficient.
The Oxford vaccine is being supplied at or very close to cost. The others are not. Fact

Don’t try and make predictions. You have no idea how the funding model will change in the future. Let’s stick to what we know at this time, you’ve had more than your fair share of egg on face by guessing what might happen.
 

Woosh

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We on the other hand are facing a short fall for about a month of supply of the AZ vaccine (still not clear to me what is the cause of this).
I think UK AZ has to send a lot of doses to the EU in April otherwise they'll stop the export of Pfizer to UK.
We live in a strange situation where free trade is practically one way, the EU exports vaccines and can't import from other countries because the agreed price is too low like with UK AZ.
You can see why they would insist on bilateral trades.
 

flecc

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Can you remember when WHO were recommending test & trace at a time when the U.K. were not doing it? The level of condemnation towards the U.K. and the prestige awarded to the WHO’s advice was tangible in virtually every post on here.
Not at all true. There were many posts critical of the test methods and I've consistently condemned them as near to useless. And still do.

Two test methods giving unreliable results and neither can be accepted to confirm or deny the other.
.
 

Jesus H Christ

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why do you insist on calling people stupid?
Nobody here besides POLLY denies the benefits of the vaccines, even those that are not used here in the UK. Your insistence on not hearing serves no purpose other than antagonising.
We know nothing about why your friend and relatives in the EU waiting for their jabs. Presumably they want the vaccine. Did they ask for it yet or are they waiting to be notified? If they are waiting, then their situation is the same as most of Brits, no difference there. If they asked for it, what was the reply?
They are waiting to be notified. That’s the procedure.

Their situation is different to Brits waiting to be vaccinated here, as you put it. You know it’s different, so why do you say it’s the same? Why do you state this untruth? What’s your agenda?

Brits of their age were vaccinated weeks ago and will receive their second vaccination in two weeks time. Why the difference? It’s not vaccine supply because Italy are sitting on stocks of Oxford vaccine.

It’s because of the blood clotting fantasy which you have bought into. It is stupid to pause the vaccination process based on a very tenuous link to 37 adverse reactions in over 17 million doses administered. It is stupid to buy into that.
 
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Danidl

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The Oxford vaccine is being supplied at or very close to cost. The others are not. Fact

Don’t try and make predictions. You have no idea how the funding model will change in the future. Let’s stick to what we know at this time, you’ve had more than your fair share of egg on face by guessing what might happen.

..From BMJ 21 Jan...

"AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson have committed to not making a profit from the pandemic, while Moderna and Pfizer did not. AstraZeneca reserved the right, however, to declare the pandemic phase over and take profits from later vaccine sales."
Someone on this site, Oyster?, Woosh? Indicated that AZ would be defining July as that date.

The BMJ article .. extracted from this article....


A string of revelations about vaccine prices has focused attention on a practice considered normal in the drug industry but often frowned on elsewhere: charging different prices to different customers for the same product.

South Africa’s government found itself on the defensive this week after a senior health official revealed that 1.5 million doses of the Oxford and AstraZeneca vaccine just purchased for use among health workers would cost $5.25 (£3.84; €4.32) a dose, more than twice what the European Union is paying at $2.15.

The EU figure is known because Belgium’s budget secretary inadvertently revealed the EU’s negotiated prices for every major vaccine on Twitter last month.1 The EU had undertaken to keep the prices confidential in return for discounts.

South Africa’s deputy director general of health, Anban Pillay, said his government had been told that $5.25 was the set price for a country classified by the World Bank as upper-middle income. “The explanation we were given for why other high-income countries have a lower price is that they have invested in the [research and development], hence the discount,” he added.

That principle has also been applied to the biggest players. The EU financially supported the development of the BioNTech and Pfizer vaccine and has obtained a lower price per dose ($14.70 than the US ($19.50). The Moderna vaccine’s development was subsidised by the US government, and it will cost the US about $15 a dose, while the EU is paying $18.

The Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is much cheaper, although neither the UK nor the US can match the EU’s $2.15 deal: they are expecting to pay about $3 and $4, respectively, per dose.

The Johnson & Johnson vaccine, expected to announce phase III results imminently, is also much cheaper, costing the EU $8.50, with each dose going twice as far as the other brands, since it is a single shot vaccine.

AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson have committed to not making a profit from the pandemic, while Moderna and Pfizer did not. AstraZeneca reserved the right, however, to declare the pandemic phase over and take profits from later vaccine sales.

Vaccine prices are only one factor in the cost of immunisation campaigns. Of the £11.7bn that the UK expects to spend on its vaccination programme, £2.9bn buys vaccines, securing 267 million doses of five different types, according to the National Audit Office.2

Even the priciest vaccines repay their cost many times over in economic growth from a reopening economy. Affluent governments could well be tempted to bid higher if supplies tighten.

Israel, which is on course to vaccinate all its citizens before any other country—having denied responsibility for vaccinating the Palestinians of the Occupied Territories—this month acknowledged paying $23.50 per dose on average to Pfizer and Moderna to obtain early shipments. Even at this high price, vaccinating the entire population of Israel costs the economy only as much as two days of lockdown. Uniquely, Israel agreed to give Pfizer anonymised health data from all of its citizens as part of the deal.

Africa secures doses
For South Africa, more troubling than the high dose cost has been an inability to secure enough vaccine. The government planned to vaccinate 40 million of its 58.5 million people but has only enough vaccine on order for 10 million.
 
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Danidl

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Breaking news. (Not confirmed ) ,but the EMA appear to have identified a mechanism by which the AZ vaccine induces blood clotting.
..an enhanced autoimmune response. That means they should be able to either dampen it or treat it or identify at risk patients.
 
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Jesus H Christ

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..From BMJ 21 Jan...

"AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson have committed to not making a profit from the pandemic, while Moderna and Pfizer did not. AstraZeneca reserved the right, however, to declare the pandemic phase over and take profits from later vaccine sales."
Someone on this site, Oyster?, Woosh? Indicated that AZ would be defining July as that date.

The BMJ article .. extracted from this article....


A string of revelations about vaccine prices has focused attention on a practice considered normal in the drug industry but often frowned on elsewhere: charging different prices to different customers for the same product.

South Africa’s government found itself on the defensive this week after a senior health official revealed that 1.5 million doses of the Oxford and AstraZeneca vaccine just purchased for use among health workers would cost $5.25 (£3.84; €4.32) a dose, more than twice what the European Union is paying at $2.15.

The EU figure is known because Belgium’s budget secretary inadvertently revealed the EU’s negotiated prices for every major vaccine on Twitter last month.1 The EU had undertaken to keep the prices confidential in return for discounts.

South Africa’s deputy director general of health, Anban Pillay, said his government had been told that $5.25 was the set price for a country classified by the World Bank as upper-middle income. “The explanation we were given for why other high-income countries have a lower price is that they have invested in the [research and development], hence the discount,” he added.

That principle has also been applied to the biggest players. The EU financially supported the development of the BioNTech and Pfizer vaccine and has obtained a lower price per dose ($14.70 than the US ($19.50). The Moderna vaccine’s development was subsidised by the US government, and it will cost the US about $15 a dose, while the EU is paying $18.

The Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is much cheaper, although neither the UK nor the US can match the EU’s $2.15 deal: they are expecting to pay about $3 and $4, respectively, per dose.

The Johnson & Johnson vaccine, expected to announce phase III results imminently, is also much cheaper, costing the EU $8.50, with each dose going twice as far as the other brands, since it is a single shot vaccine.

AstraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson have committed to not making a profit from the pandemic, while Moderna and Pfizer did not. AstraZeneca reserved the right, however, to declare the pandemic phase over and take profits from later vaccine sales.

Vaccine prices are only one factor in the cost of immunisation campaigns. Of the £11.7bn that the UK expects to spend on its vaccination programme, £2.9bn buys vaccines, securing 267 million doses of five different types, according to the National Audit Office.2

Even the priciest vaccines repay their cost many times over in economic growth from a reopening economy. Affluent governments could well be tempted to bid higher if supplies tighten.

Israel, which is on course to vaccinate all its citizens before any other country—having denied responsibility for vaccinating the Palestinians of the Occupied Territories—this month acknowledged paying $23.50 per dose on average to Pfizer and Moderna to obtain early shipments. Even at this high price, vaccinating the entire population of Israel costs the economy only as much as two days of lockdown. Uniquely, Israel agreed to give Pfizer anonymised health data from all of its citizens as part of the deal.

Africa secures doses
For South Africa, more troubling than the high dose cost has been an inability to secure enough vaccine. The government planned to vaccinate 40 million of its 58.5 million people but has only enough vaccine on order for 10 million.
The Oxford vaccine is being supplied at or very close to cost. The others are not. Fact

The rest of your words say that they may or they may not make a profit at some point in the future. No one knows and certainly not you.
 
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Woosh

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Their situation is different to Brits waiting to be vaccinated here, as you put it. You know it’s different, so why do you say it’s the same? Why do you state this untruth? What’s your agenda?
stop it. It's not an untruth and you know it.
so we have started vaccinating the 50+ and the EU is a little behind, so what?
The suspension will be lifted as soon as the study is done anyway.
A German MEP went on BBC News this morning to explain.
Apparently, they find especially among women receiving the AZ vaccine that the number of blood clot incidences are above what is expected. That's why they took the decision to suspend the AZ vaccine.
He said there are a number of other side effects that they want to investigate too.
They are waiting for the results later today.

What’s your agenda?
I only want to know. On the other hand, you seem to see all the advantages and none of the disadvantages.
 

Jesus H Christ

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Dec 31, 2020
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Breaking news. (Not confirmed ) ,but the EMA appear to have identified a mechanism by which the AZ vaccine induces blood clotting.
..an enhanced autoimmune response. That means they should be able to either dampen it or treat it or identify at risk patients.
Bull. There is no mechanism because there is no clotting issue.

They will continue telling EU nations to get on with it and to stop the serial dithering and fannying about which has crippled their vaccination programme, left millions vulnerable to Covid and is now triggering a third deadly wave.
 
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flecc

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The Oxford vaccine is being supplied at or very close to cost. The others are not. Fact

The rest of your words say that they may or they may not make a profit at some point in the future. No one knows and certainly not you.
Yes we do know. Of course they'll be making profits, AZ is a publically quoted drugs company and their shareholders will demand profits. Investment in drug companies is high risk and only done in expectation of high returns when lucky.
.
 
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Jesus H Christ

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Dec 31, 2020
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stop it. It's not an untruth and you know it.
so we have started vaccinating the 50+ and the EU is a little behind, so what?
The suspension will be lifted as soon as the study is done anyway.
A German MEP went on BBC News this morning to explain.
Apparently, they find especially among women receiving the AZ vaccine that the number of blood clot incidences are above what is expected. That's why they took the decision to suspend the AZ vaccine.
He said there are a number of other side effects that they want to investigate too.
They are waiting for the results later today.


I only want to know. On the other hand, you seem to see all the advantages and none of the disadvantages.
Take two separate vaccination programmes. British & Italian. The British has vaccinated all of its over 60s and is making massive inroads into the over 50s. The over 60s will be starting to get their second vaccination in two weeks time.

The Italian vaccination programme hasn’t yet invited it’s over 60s for vaccination.

Explain how you can possibly see the Brits being in the same situation as the Italians. Your suggestion that they are is simply not true.

The Italians have a massive amount of work to do to catch up, it’s not “a little behind” as you put it. That is a deliberate downplay of the situation. Many other EU nations are in a similar situation to Italy.

Now cases are surging again in mainland Europe. This will make the vaccine rollout more problematic.

I don’t think you are unintelligent, quite the opposite. If you think Italy and the U.K. are in the same situation regarding vaccination and you believe that halting vaccination due this non clotting issue is a wise move, then that is stupid.

It is possible to be intelligent but hold stupid views and commit acts of stupidity.
 
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Jesus H Christ

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Yes we do know. Of course they'll be making profits, AZ is a publically quoted drugs company and their shareholders will demand profits. Investment in drug companies is high risk and only done in expectation of high returns when lucky.
.
The Oxford vaccine is being supplied at or very close to cost. The others are not. Fact
 
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Danidl

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Tell me what is not true about the Oxford vaccine being supplied at or very close to cost price at this time? That’s all I’ve said, no predictions. What is not true in those words?
Its no longer the Oxford vaccine, it is the AZ and now Covax .The extrapolation to other types. It is very likely that the Pfizer is at cost price to needy nations ..see the BMJ article, you have zero information on the cost structure for Sputnik and Sinovac, and the cost structure for AZ in SA is not at what what is understood as cost price.
 

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