Brexit, for once some facts.

Jesus H Christ

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Your definition of political is even political... I can accept that it wasn't the worst call made, but it wasn't on based on Science. ..but on expediency
Let’s take a look. A scientist who happens to be the chief scientist in the world of medical science has made a scientific decision after consulting with other scientists who are leads in their particular branch of science. Yes, given your track record on here, I can absolutely believe that you think that is a political decision.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Personally looking forward to taking new grandson out on our own for a walk. Going back and having tea with daughter and not having to worry about thinking I, d caught covid or given it them?? Not much to ask.
Think vaccines will get us there.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Still no problem, as I posed there will not be and cannot be a failed roll out caused by the government. If any of the above occur, the government will say it's for one or more of the following reasons:

New variants.

Vaccine refusnicks.

Failure of the public to stick to level 4 lockdown, no shortage of evidence for that.

The vaccines proving to have a limited period of effectiveness like the 'flu vaccine, as well as not being able to cope with all the new variants.

Weather. Winter/Summer, Too hot, too cold, too humid, too something or other. Remember leaves on the rails stopping trains when we were informed there are wrong kinds of leaves!

And they'll support the excuses by quoting the other countries similarly suffering.
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I sort of see that but don't think it will wash. If I can't take kids in boat this year, take them to football, go for a curry with wife, can't take camper van out etc etc I, ll see they have failed.
Whereas, the opposite is easy to see.

And even if you accept it, what was point of fast start?? No end benefit?
Nobody can be seen to have jeapirdised (is that spelt right?) vaccine. Putting head on chopping block for no reason.
Look at reaction on here.
Johnson is being blamed for making a decision which seems at moment to be a good one. Imagine stick he, d take if it proves awry.
To be fair it's been a brave route , one which could ruin him.(even tho I believe he didn't take it, think he would have been saying.. "Are you sure Mr Valance?" And thinking secretly "feck, my career is on line here".
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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I sort of see that but don't think it will wash. If I can't take kids in boat this year, take them to football, go for a curry with wife, can't take camper van out etc etc I, ll see they have failed.
Whereas, the opposite is easy to see.
So to use one of your points, who else are you going to vote for?

Starmer and co? After the Tory false news machine has got to work, little chance.

And anyway as I've already explained, Labour cannot win power without all those Scottish seats lost to the SNP.

And the LibDems still have no chance as an aftermath of their coalition with the Tories.
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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So to use one of your points, who else are you going to vote for?

Starmer and co? After the Tory false news machine has got to work, little chance.

And anyway as I've already explained, Labour cannot win power without all those Scottish seats lost to the SNP.

And the LibDems still have no chance as an aftermath of their coalition with the Tories.
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Good point... Suspect if it fails we, d have a change of Tory leadership first and over months a slide to Labour.
If its seen mistakes with PPE, lockdown and finally vaccine were made it would be last straw,especially considering our death rate.
This is their last chance of redemption over covid.

Changing subject.
AZ looking very philanthropic??? Glad I, m not a share holder. All that risk, hassle and no reward..apparently.
You can bet AZ have known from the off covid will be like the flu and need yearly boosters.. For everyone..???
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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AZ looking very philanthropic??? Glad I, m not a share holder. All that risk, hassle and no reward..apparently.
Of course, they are Swedish and Sweden is fundamentally Socialist through and through. From government all the way into board rooms the greater good always rules. It's why the Swedes pay more of what they earn in tax than any other country, yet consistently rank as one of the world's most happy and contented peoples.
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Danidl

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Let’s take a look. A scientist who happens to be the chief scientist in the world of medical science has made a scientific decision after consulting with other scientists who are leads in their particular branch of science. Yes, given your track record on here, I can absolutely believe that you think that is a political decision.
Nope!!. The world is a big place. If at your age, you cannot yet appreciate that the person who gets to be the chief advisor to a State is both competent ,in their discipline, and with a huge political nous. It is just the same in any of the Churches, the Police forces, The Military, the Universities , . The core discipline in which they gained prominence, is no longer relevant,it is the relationships which do...and that is politics.
I have no doubt they looked at two very serious things.
1 the then current infection rates and its very probable death rate spiral..The UK was world beating at that time. We are talking late December January
2 The Short term effects on hospitalisation with a rollout of either vaccine .They were looking at an 8 week horizon.
They were vindicated in that decision. What they could not allow in their calculations, was what the probability of inducing newer variants.
Just so we are clear, I have no vested interest in whoever occupies no 10. I don't care about their politics or their personalities,or their names.
 

Danidl

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Personally looking forward to taking new grandson out on our own for a walk. Going back and having tea with daughter and not having to worry about thinking I, d caught covid or given it them?? Not much to ask.
Think vaccines will get us there.
..yes they will, and it is a future much to be desired.
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Nope!!. The world is a big place. If at your age, you cannot yet appreciate that the person who gets to be the chief advisor to a State is both competent ,in their discipline, and with a huge political nous. It is just the same in any of the Churches, the Police forces, The Military, the Universities , . The core discipline in which they gained prominence, is no longer relevant,it is the relationships which do...and that is politics.
I have no doubt they looked at two very serious things.
1 the then current infection rates and its very probable death rate spiral..The UK was world beating at that time. We are talking late December January
2 The Short term effects on hospitalisation with a rollout of either vaccine .They were looking at an 8 week horizon.
They were vindicated in that decision. What they could not allow in their calculations, was what the probability of inducing newer variants.
Just so we are clear, I have no vested interest in whoever occupies no 10. I don't care about their politics or their personalities,or their names.
So what was Johnson or Tories benefit from making a decision that could jeapordise everything for short term popularity? I, m afraid your argument just does not make sense. On the one hand you say they have nous (nounce??) but then insist they make a decision based on achieving very very short term gains (ie popularity getting through first 20 million) but then risk the lot months down the line. It doesn't make sense Danidl. At all. Risking a chance of normality this summer for a bit more popularity in Spring. Tories and Johnson are way cleverer than that. You are putting Labour thinking in their minds, which is exactly why they aren't in power.
The salient point is both regimes take exactly same amount of total time to complete fully. Just different routes.
If one finished months before other you might have a point, but they don't. The govt are clever enough to know this (some aren't) so all the longer delay achieves politically is more popularity for a few weeks.
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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Let’s take a look. A scientist who happens to be the chief scientist in the world of medical science has made a scientific decision after consulting with other scientists who are leads in their particular branch of science. Yes, given your track record on here, I can absolutely believe that you think that is a political decision.
Wrong again
"A scientist who happens to be the chief Medical scientist in this country alone, not the world, and feels desperate times call for a gamble to be taken even though no evidence supports it
Unless they gave it best out of three coin tosses?
You can absolutely believe anything if determined :D
 
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oldgroaner

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If that's the case, we are arguing over nothing.???
By Jove I think he's finally got it
(And didn't even try a sly jab in the process)
Now that is progress:cool:
I wonder how long it will take for someone to realise he would be better off blocking himself than me? ;)
 
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oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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So what was Johnson or Tories benefit from making a decision that could jeapordise everything for short term popularity? I, m afraid your argument just does not make sense. On the one hand you say they have nous (nounce??) but then insist they make a decision based on achieving very very short term gains (ie popularity getting through first 20 million) but then risk the lot months down the line. It doesn't make sense Danidl. At all. Risking a chance of normality this summer for a bit more popularity in Spring. Tories and Johnson are way cleverer than that. You are putting Labour thinking in their minds, which is exactly why they aren't in power.
The salient point is both regimes take exactly same amount of total time to complete fully. Just different routes.
If one finished months before other you might have a point, but they don't. The govt are clever enough to know this (some aren't) so all the longer delay achieves politically is more popularity for a few weeks.
I don't suppose you realise that they would regard
"all the longer delay achieves politically is more popularity for a few weeks."
As kicking the can down the road when they were in desperate straits?
Imagine the relief!!
The suckers are bound to fall for it, works every time..
Like for instance causing a minor sensation over the price of wallpaper at Johnson's latest fancies temporary boudoir, when corruption is being revealed that would even bring down the government in a poorly organised Banana republic? :cool:
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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they make a decision based on achieving very very short term gains (ie popularity getting through first 20 million) but then risk the lot months down the line.
You are over reading this. The government has repeatedly said that the release from lockdown will be careful and measured and that they will not risk another lockdown.

They mean it and even Boris has said as much in parallel with his "return to the good times" announcements.

You will be able to enjoy more freedom later in the year. The combination of all the factors I previously listed plus the vaccine outcomes will assure it. How much and how soon will depend on the pace of control of the pandemic progress.
.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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You are over reading this. The government has repeatedly said that the release from lockdown will be careful and measured and that they will not risk another lockdown.

They mean it and even Boris has said as much in parallel with his "return to the good times" announcements.

You will be able to enjoy more freedom later in the year. The combination of all the factors I previously listed plus the vaccine outcomes will assure it. How much and how soon will depend on the pace of control of the pandemic progress.
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Well, again sort of agree with you. To my mind folk on about government /2nd jab delay are over playing that aspect.
Danidl summed it up well, and reading your posts (only a bit between lines) seems to suggest folk think the vaccine will work. If that's the case why point out, argue about who is responsible for its potential failure.
Its successful so far and all signs seem to be suggesting that will continue. That suits me fine.
Daughter is replanning her cancelled wedding...!!! If it passes that test with all planned guests, well that's great. Fingers crossed.
 

Danidl

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So what was Johnson or Tories benefit from making a decision that could jeapordise everything for short term popularity? I, m afraid your argument just does not make sense. On the one hand you say they have nous (nounce??) but then insist they make a decision based on achieving very very short term gains (ie popularity getting through first 20 million) but then risk the lot months down the line. It doesn't make sense Danidl. At all. Risking a chance of normality this summer for a bit more popularity in Spring. Tories and Johnson are way cleverer than that. You are putting Labour thinking in their minds, which is exactly why they aren't in power.
The salient point is both regimes take exactly same amount of total time to complete fully. Just different routes.
If one finished months before other you might have a point, but they don't. The govt are clever enough to know this (some aren't) so all the longer delay achieves politically is more popularity for a few weeks.
" but then risk the lot months down the line. "... That is the bit we disagree on. I am suggesting that they deliberately or inadvertently choose to ignore that possibility. Its sort of committing the reserves ,when you can see no other option. The" Save Christmas " mantra was looking extremely hollow, if March was to be looking at landfill sites for cemeteries. The NHS was looking at meltdown. The Lancet article , a little later in time was more conservative and considered.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Danidl summed it up well, and reading your posts (only a bit between lines) seems to suggest folk think the vaccine will work. If that's the case why point out, argue about who is responsible for its potential failure.
Depends what is meant by "work". I'll answer this on Monday when there'll be lots more around able to enjoy a good argument

Its successful so far and all signs seem to be suggesting that will continue. That suits me fine.
Daughter is replanning her cancelled wedding...!!! If it passes that test with all planned guests, well that's great. Fingers crossed.
Yes, I hope that comes off for her and you. The signs are promising but as the government warns now and the old saying goes, "more haste, less speed". We mustn't rush things.
.
 
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