Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

.. and they add a qualifier to the headline: "after 3 or 4 weeks."

People can interpret that as "anytime after 3 or 4 weeks", very different from the reality, "at week 3 or week 4" after the jab.

How many do you reckon will look up the published papers and see for themselves that after the protective effect peaks at week 3 or week 4, the effect fades away.
The announcement is literally correct but somewhat misleading.

At today's Covid briefing, JVT was very careful when he announced the latest research result for the 80+ group, he took his time to explain the work, and concludes that the vaccine gives 60% protection against the illness and may be as much as 70%.

But as Susan pointed out protection against hospitalisation /death is completely different to protection from infection. (as far as figures are concerned). Posters seem incapable of differentiating between the 2.(well some seem so to justify their negative comments)

For us Germans, failure is especially bitter

The European Commission has failed to accomplish its most — indeed only — important task in the continent’s biggest crisis since the end of the war: to secure enough vaccine for all Europeans.

www.thetimes.co.uk

I suppose Times is spouting propoganda now.? I wonder what all the folk knocking our roll out and the lackeys organising it would be saying if our vaccine situation was swapped with Germany.??

From the Times.

And I have no control over font size. So I ain't apologising.

Perhaps it's time we all showed some appreciation for those responsible for UK being in a much better position,rather than label them lackeys.
No doubt suggesting that will prompt a reply of Tory or Boris fan boy from our Marxist friends. Not sure how supporting NHS/PHE and its leaders does that but there you go..

 

[oldgroaner]

Thank you.. I think.
Why hasn't OG explained why he thought vaccination program would be finished earlier under one regime over the other? At one stage he was convinced, then changed his argument... Then went silent. Except for insulting someone?
Why are so many on here against our vaccine rollout? It's very strange. It is quite literally, for a change, world leading. It's about the only thing this government has got anything like right but lots of angry dissenters on here.
Sarah Jarvis on radio today said German media had reported AZ vaccine had only 8% efficacy for over 65s. They had claimed to have "mis interpreted data" , apparently data said only 8% of cohort was in that age group. No wonder Germans are refusing it. Perhaps some on here bought into those lies.
Our vaccine roll out is exceptional. We are all benefitting and will benefit more. What is wrong with you people.
How many refused the jab on here? I, d guess quite a few??

Hang on there
"Why hasn't OG explained why he thought vaccination program would be finished earlier under one regime over the other? At one stage he was convinced, then changed his argument... Then went silent. Except for insulting someone?"

Changed what argument? do explain, and who was insulted? do tell me how I managed that.

And then this
"Our vaccine roll out is exceptional. We are all benefitting and will benefit more. What is wrong with you people."

Nothing whatsoever, with a more intelligent approach by the Government it would have been every bit as efficient distribution wise and superior protection wise, what is wrong with you people excusing this failure on their part?

They knew it would be necessary and had a year to plan, yet only set up Nightingale hospitals to deal with the dead and dying.
As to this
"No wonder Germans are refusing it. Perhaps some on here bought into those lies."

We didn't why should we? and how do you connect this tiny group with the attitude of Germany?

And this
"What is wrong with you people.
How many refused the jab on here? I, d guess quite a few??"
Unless you have, I don't know anyone.

Now why would you imagine there is something wrong with "us people" and that we would refuse the jab?

And of course we have paid over the odds to the tune of £28 per dose which was supposed to smooth the path and ensure supplies. yet still end up crowing about
Vaccinating a mere 20% and only doing half the job at that?
Let's recap we have half vaccinated 20% of the population and exposed them to a period of needless risk as despite paying over the odds for the shots our attempt to jump the queue failed.

Not merely that, but at the moment the government is arguing with the supplier blaming them for shortages, and the supplier responding we supplied what you ordered on the dates you wanted it

There is clear evidence the vaccine does not give immediate protective effect and that effect doesn't remain strong enough to justify three months instead of one between doses

What is wrong with you people? you ask.
We think the truth matters and seek to learn it.

 

[oldgroaner]

Just to remind you flecc about your view of JVT, PV and Chris Witty.
They are lackeys because they are not saying what you want them to, not because of any evidence based objective measure.
I suppose experts on radio today congratulating our roll out are bribed to spout propoganda too. Even the Germans congratulating it.. Wonder how much they were paid.

Why for once in your life don't you read Flecc's post and try not to put in through your garbage converter before posting?
Flecc said nothing more or less than that they are lackeys
Definition
a servant, especially a liveried footman or manservant.
He went on to explain he went on to explain that they will go along with whatever the Government requires them to say, for the simple reason that if they didn't to any great degree, they would be out of a job
He's right of course

 

[Woosh]

But as Susan pointed out protection against hospitalisation /death is completely different to protection from infection. (as far as figures are concerned). Posters seem incapable of differentiating between the 2.(well some seem so to justify their negative comments)

the Scottish study was about hospitalisations for which they have the complete records.

I wish posters would read the data at the end of the document before conclusion:

Table 2. COVID-19 hospitalisation and days post-vaccination for both BNT162b2 and ChAdOx1nCoV-19 and by vaccine type

Table 3. COVID-19 hospitalisation by age group and days post-vaccination (BNT162b2 and ChAdOx1nCoV-19

Vaccine dose 1 (18-64 years 42+ days) vaccine effect: 51%


a long way from the 85%-94% headline in week 4

scotland_firstvaccinedata_preprint.pdf

 

[Zlatan]

Why for once in your life don't you read Flecc's post and try not to put in through your garbage converter before posting?
Flecc said nothing more or less than that they are lackeys
Definition
a servant, especially a liveried footman or manservant.
He went on to explain that he offered no criticism of their performance, but you obviously never bothered to read that before launching into this post, which is a load of tripe

There are few people who could think calling someone a lackey is not an insult. But seen as you do, why are you being flecc's lackey.. Oh, yes of course, both of you utterly brainwashed against UK.
Susan was spot on in her arguments with you. You did say current roll out would save 2 months and then changed it, after she made you look stupid. Which to be fair, you made easy.She has been on forum 2 weeks and sussed you out in 3 posts.
You didn't answer any of her questions.
Have you had the jab?(hypocrite perhaps) Explain how current roll out saves any time to complete it? (you argued 2 months saving)
You care nothing of truth, simply trying and hoping to prove your wrong opinion correct. Which neither you or flecc can do so you both resort to insults.
I don't know why I, ve come back. Utterly pointless discussing anything with you.
Good night OG. Leaving it to JHC and Susan..

 

[Zlatan]

the Scottish study was about hospitalisations for which they have the complete records.

I wish posters would read the data at the end of the document before conclusion:

Table 2. COVID-19 hospitalisation and days post-vaccination for both BNT162b2 and ChAdOx1nCoV-19 and by vaccine type

Table 3. COVID-19 hospitalisation by age group and days post-vaccination (BNT162b2 and ChAdOx1nCoV-19

Vaccine dose 1 (18-64 years 42+ days) vaccine effect: 51%


a long way from the 85%-94% headline in week 4

scotland_firstvaccinedata_preprint.pdf

The 42day plus figure for 80 plus Yr olds is 80%.(a combined figure) according to this table.


In other words at 42 days plus (for 80 plus Yr olds) single dose reduces hospitalisation by 80%.

 

[flecc]

Just to remind you flecc about your view of JVT, PV and Chris Witty.
They are lackeys because they are not saying what you want them to, not because of any evidence based objective measure.

Another two lies from you.

I called them lackeys because they were not saying what the makers of the vaccine wanted them to on the basis of their tested evidence. That evidence was the maker's objective measure and the statistical evidence that I believe was mine. Your trio of experts offered no opposing evidence at the time, actually saying it was their belief it was safe to delay the second dose. Belief is all very well, but it isn't evidence or good science and their jobs are to give us the science.

This was clear from the post you quoted from, so not for the first time I think it would be a good idea for you to practice reading until you get it right.
.

 

[Woosh]

The 42day plus figure for 80 plus Yr olds is 80%.(a combined figure) according to this table.

1. why do you think the report stops at week 6 (42 days)?
2. read also the first two columns, number of people and number of incidences: 7 for your selected group of 80+.

This study is of 1,1millions Scots and the chosen conclusion is based on 7 people in hospitals. The size of the sample is very small.

It's like me quoting the torque of my Rambla is 100NM, and qualify it somewhere in small prints that it's max torque and measured at the chainring.

 

[oldgroaner]

There are few people who could think calling someone a lackey is not an insult. But seen as you do, why are you being flecc's lackey.. Oh, yes of course, both of you utterly brainwashed against UK.
Susan was spot on in her arguments with you. You did say current roll out would save 2 months and then changed it, after she made you look stupid. Which to be fair, you made easy.
You care nothing of truth, simply trying and hoping to prove your wrong opinion correct.

You never learn do you
Always this unjustified hostility
"Oh, yes of course, both of you utterly brainwashed against UK.
You care nothing of truth, simply trying and hoping to prove your wrong opinion correct."
That is a very biased view indeed and not worthy of anyone.
"Susan was spot on in her arguments with you. You did say current roll out would save 2 months and then changed it, after she made you look stupid. Which to be fair, you made easy."
The relevant post re dosage dates
I didn't change the argument, she did! I still maintain it will finish two months later

There are few people who could think calling someone a lackey is not an insult. But seen as you do, why are you being flecc's lackey.. Oh, yes of course, both of you utterly brainwashed against UK.
Susan was spot on in her arguments with you. You did say current roll out would save 2 months and then changed it, after she made you look stupid. Which to be fair, you made easy.She has been on forum 2 weeks and sussed you out in 3 posts.
You didn't answer any of her questions.
Have you had the jab?(hypocrite perhaps) Explain how current roll out saves any time to complete it? (you argued 2 months saving)
You care nothing of truth, simply trying and hoping to prove your wrong opinion correct. Which neither you or flecc can do so you both resort to insults.
I don't know why I, ve come back. Utterly pointless discussing anything with you.
Good night OG. Leaving it to JHC and Susan..

You certainly are no wiser are you? still the same old corny lines

 

[Zlatan]

1. why do you think the report stops at week 6 (42 days)?
2. read also the first two columns, number of people and number of incidences: 7 for your selected group of 80+.

This study is of 1,1millions Scots and the chosen conclusion is based on 7 people in hospitals. The size of the sample is very small.

It's like me quoting the torque of my Rambla is 100NM, and qualify it somewhere in small prints that it's max torque and measured at the chainring.

The blurb also states (under limitations) that the 80 plus group were the only group (at the time) universally offered vaccination. (with 90% plus take up) Other age groups only included groups at much higher risk and hence likely to show worse outcome than general population. The final figure quoted of maximum effect (at day 34) was thus estimated at figures mentioned. (ie higher than figure you quote as that is for groups with very high comorbidity.)
Their conclusion.
Both vaccines in single dose give high protection against hospitalisation at 42 plus days.??
But agreed it's a small sample size to reach accurate, good or bad conclusions. At the time the 80 plus year old group are optimistic, as mentioned, the only group universally offered jab. And, in theory, the group likely to have lower immune response than other groups but showed 80% fewer hospitalisation at 42 days.
The whole point of study is to decide on policy. To my mind results seen suggest policy is on right lines, but that decision is for folk qualified to make those decisions. Not me, you, Flecc or OG. Perhaps we should just leave it to JVT, PV and CW.
When they need to know about ski boats I, ll get in touch with them. When they want to know about bike motors I, ll steer them your way. When they want to talk crap, OG's your man.

 

[Zlatan]

You never learn do you
Always this unjustified hostility
"Oh, yes of course, both of you utterly brainwashed against UK.
You care nothing of truth, simply trying and hoping to prove your wrong opinion correct."
That is a very biased view indeed and not worthy of anyone.
"Susan was spot on in her arguments with you. You did say current roll out would save 2 months and then changed it, after she made you look stupid. Which to be fair, you made easy."
The relevant post re dosage dates
I didn't change the argument, she did! I still maintain it will finish two months later

You certainly are no wiser are you? still the same old corny lines

OG the day you can teach me anything will be a sad sad day. It ain't going to happen.
Carry on your crusade in here against everything. Fine. You aren't converting or convincing anybody,much as you keep trying. Your efforts are futile.
BTW OG, I, ll ask question Susan asked.
If you think roll out will finish 2 months later(or earlier) please explain why? (as she said the finishing date(ie everybody getting 2 doses) will be exactly same date. (circa 90 million jabs at circa 2 million per week, will finish on exact same date. She was right.)
The only thing that alters finish date is total jabs dispensed and daily rate. Delay makes no difference.???

 

[Danidl]

Thank you.. I think.
Why hasn't OG explained why he thought vaccination program would be finished earlier under one regime over the other? At one stage he was convinced, then changed his argument... Then went silent. Except for insulting someone?
Why are so many on here against our vaccine rollout? It's very strange. It is quite literally, for a change, world leading. It's about the only thing this government has got anything like right but lots of angry dissenters on here.
Sarah Jarvis on radio today said German media had reported AZ vaccine had only 8% efficacy for over 65s. They had claimed to have "mis interpreted data" , apparently data said only 8% of cohort was in that age group. No wonder Germans are refusing it. Perhaps some on here bought into those lies.
Our vaccine roll out is exceptional. We are all benefitting and will benefit more. What is wrong with you people.
How many refused the jab on here? I, d guess quite a few??

Suzan. Lets parse this a little. Everyone in Europe is happy that the UKs vaccination program is working and 20 M jabs have happened. There are however a few wrinkles,.l
1. The EU is less than happy that warehouses which they had been expecting to be filled with AZ vaccine on 29th. January, were in fact empty, and the suspicion was that they had been spirited off to the UK.
2. The EU and EMA are not convinced ( and neither are the Israeli or myself) that a failure to give the second jab at the recommended interval is a wise strategy. Despite having started a full month behind the UK, Ireland now has twice the percentage of its population fully vaccinated and of course the Israelis are even further ahead of the UK.
3. The 27 national health authorities in the EU, who have the responsibility, were not furnished by AZ with sufficient data to make an INFORMED decision as to whether vaccine was effective in the 60 plus age group. The UK had if anything , less information , but decided to make no such distinctions.
4. Finally even with the strides of the vaccine, the UK is still infecting more, and killing more per capita than the other countries to which it compares.

 

[Zlatan]

New data show vaccines reduce severe COVID-19 in older adults

New data show both Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines significantly reduce severe COVID-19 in older adults.

www.gov.uk

Some more bad news for OG and Flecc.

 

[oldgroaner]

New data show vaccines reduce severe COVID-19 in older adults

New data show both Pfizer-BioNTech and Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccines significantly reduce severe COVID-19 in older adults.

www.gov.uk

Some more bad news for OG and Flecc.

You know, you really shouldn't indulge this fetish you have for unprovoked and misguided hostility, we both like to hear good news, just get bored with your misunderstanding our thinking.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG the day you can teach me anything will be a sad sad day. It ain't going to happen.
Carry on your crusade in here against everything. Fine. You aren't converting or convincing anybody,much as you keep trying. Your efforts are futile.
BTW OG, I, ll ask question Susan asked.
If you think roll out will finish 2 months later(or earlier) please explain why? (as she said the finishing date(ie everybody getting 2 doses) will be exactly same date. (circa 90 million jabs at circa 2 million per week, will finish on exact same date. She was right.)
The only thing that alters finish date is total jabs dispensed and daily rate. Delay makes no difference.???

For the very obvious reason the last person to have their second jab must be two weeks later than they would have had it if it had been one month after the first!
Unless you have a Tardis?
As to this
"OG the day you can teach me anything will be a sad sad day. It ain't going to happen. "
This is true, my life expectancy is too short to witness you volunteering for the first successful brain implant!

 

[oldgroaner]

The blurb also states (under limitations) that the 80 plus group were the only group (at the time) universally offered vaccination. (with 90% plus take up) Other age groups only included groups at much higher risk and hence likely to show worse outcome than general population. The final figure quoted of maximum effect (at day 34) was thus estimated at figures mentioned. (ie higher than figure you quote as that is for groups with very high comorbidity.)
Their conclusion.
Both vaccines in single dose give high protection against hospitalisation at 42 plus days.??
But agreed it's a small sample size to reach accurate, good or bad conclusions. At the time the 80 plus year old group are optimistic, as mentioned, the only group universally offered jab. And, in theory, the group likely to have lower immune response than other groups but showed 80% fewer hospitalisation at 42 days.
The whole point of study is to decide on policy. To my mind results seen suggest policy is on right lines, but that decision is for folk qualified to make those decisions. Not me, you, Flecc or OG. Perhaps we should just leave it to JVT, PV and CW.
When they need to know about ski boats I, ll get in touch with them. When they want to know about bike motors I, ll steer them your way. When they want to talk crap, OG's your man.

Actually your posts demonstrate three things
1: You are not qualified to decide what I should or should not think
2: You are either not capable or willing to think for yourself
3: An unfortunate habit of launching into unprovoked personal attacks at any and every opportunity

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Suzan. Lets parse this a little. Everyone in Europe is happy that the UKs vaccination program is working and 20 M jabs have happened. There are however a few wrinkles,.l
1. The EU is less than happy that warehouses which they had been expecting to be filled with AZ vaccine on 29th. January, were in fact empty, and the suspicion was that they had been spirited off to the UK.
2. The EU and EMA are not convinced ( and neither are the Israeli or myself) that a failure to give the second jab at the recommended interval is a wise strategy. Despite having started a full month behind the UK, Ireland now has twice the percentage of its population fully vaccinated and of course the Israelis are even further ahead of the UK.
3. The 27 national health authorities in the EU, who have the responsibility, were not furnished by AZ with sufficient data to make an INFORMED decision as to whether vaccine was effective in the 60 plus age group. The UK had if anything , less information , but decided to make no such distinctions.
4. Finally even with the strides of the vaccine, the UK is still infecting more, and killing more per capita than the other countries to which it compares.

The EU were fannying around and were crippled with indecision. That’s why they were late ordering and that’s why they were late taking delivery.

 

[Zlatan]

For the very obvious reason the last person to have their second jab must be two weeks later than they would have had it if it had been one month after the first!

That is rubbish.. Which are you saying would take less time? 3 weeks delay or 12 weeks..??
And you are now saying 2 weeks difference, you originally said 2 months??
Just stop and think OG... Work out the time to get through 90 million jabs at 2 million a week..
Try it... See if delay changes finish date.
The only difference would be lots more 1st jabs done by week 12...After that progress would be same... But that would not affect total time..
You are wrong. Again.

 

[Zlatan]

Covid: What is happening with the EU vaccine rollout? - BBC News

The EU is speeding up its coronavirus vaccine rollout after initial delays and problems.

www.bbc.co.uk

Danidl, think you should read this. You seem rather confused over EU vaccine roll out. It's rubbish.
Then have a study of this.

Coronavirus Update (Live): 131,811,732 Cases and 2,863,559 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...

www.worldometers.info

UK infections and deaths have been and are terrible. Spain, France and Italy are all now showing higher infection rates. Belgium has had worse death rate. And, the discussion was about vaccination scheme. As I, ve said before, nobody knows why some countries have done far worse than others. It could be poor leadership but assuming so now is pure speculation. Its another area we must know the real reasons for. We won't know for years.

 

[Nev]

Brexit not working out too well for these fishermen at the moment at least.
'I shouldn't be out there in gales': Brixham fishers take Brexit hit | Fishing industry | The Guardian