Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Think Flecc has hit nail on head, in that his assumption for EU to be successful it must become a single nation. Unfortunately there is no way on earth that will ever happen and its certainly not what folk thought( accepted big assumption) when we had the first joke vote ( referendum) AFTER already having joined..
I don't want to be simply an EU Citizen and neither does another 52% of voting public.
Perhaps all the remain campaigners should be as honest as Flecc, and point out for eu to work all its individual constituents must hand over sovereignty??? No thanks. Blair , Cameron,Osbourne, and Farage are bad enough but Junkhers and his sycophants are both unelected and far worse..Do we really need another layer if corruption. One corrupt but elected governance is enough waste.. Thanks but no thanks. Blair should be shot, Juhnkers locked up. Cameron deported. Osbourne made to work at some inner city School.
Think best solution is reestablish monarchy. Keeps number of scavengers down and in one place.

Why don't you want to be a citizen of the EU?, and why do you imagine the EU superstate won't happen?
It is inevitable, and more than that absolutely necessary as a step to the eventual world government that has to be the future for humanity.
Do explain what you find objectionable about the rest of the human race.
Once again these "unelected" and handing over of sovereignty nonsense accusations, that shows a total lack of knowledge about how all governments work, not merely the EU.
Laws are passed by mutual consent among member nations, not imposed by the commission.
That last paragraph was a joke? Monarchy of the last form of government the human race needs!

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[derf]

Think Flecc has hit nail on head, in that his assumption for EU to be successful it must become a single nation. Unfortunately there is no way on earth that will ever happen and its certainly not what folk thought( accepted big assumption) when we had the first joke vote ( referendum) AFTER already having joined..
I don't want to be simply an EU Citizen and neither does another 52% of voting public.
Perhaps all the remain campaigners should be as honest as Flecc, and point out for eu to work all its individual constituents must hand over sovereignty??? No thanks. Blair , Cameron,Osbourne, and Farage are bad enough but Junkhers and his sycophants are both unelected and far worse..Do we really need another layer if corruption. One corrupt but elected governance is enough waste.. Thanks but no thanks. Blair should be shot, Juhnkers locked up. Cameron deported. Osbourne made to work at some inner city School.
Think best solution is reestablish monarchy. Keeps number of scavengers down and in one place.

i'm from Africa and have some experience of the corruption of national governments. I don't mean to entirely disagree (because I think there is some merit in what you say), BUT I don't think anything the eu can do, has ever done (or may ever have contemplated doing) could possibly trump Blair's fiasco with bush in setting the middle east alight. that will go down in history as a big cock up. bigger than the suez crisis. by effing far.
however, I don't like juncker that much either and the eu has its problems with representation. for myself ive never thought about political representation as about sovereignty. look at trump breaking his promises, or farage's little game of hide and seek viz "I don't really want to be in politics". it's all completely disingenuous. they do not represent you and sovereignty is just a way to play with yoru sentiments. I prefer to think about policies, and I prefer the eu's environmental, relatively caring (its taken more refuges than any other part of the developed world) policies to the antii environment anti freedom of expression policies of trump, brexit et al.

 

[Zlatan]

Good post Derf. Agree with most of it.
Except..much as Trump ( and Farage Cameron/ Blair) seems incapable of being a humane President / politician we know for a fact Junkers isn't. ( look at his history as Priminister of Luxembourg) yet he ends up one of most powerful men in world and probably most powerful in Europe.
Flecc
Why should I be questioned about not wanting to be a Citizen of EU ? I don't ...end of. Full stop.
None of your business.
Why don't you want to be a UK citizen ? ( dont answer.its rhetorical)

And still nobody explains why free market must be linked to free movement.. Only that it is under Mastrict..Why and to what benefit. There are more reasons to let individual countries decide about free movement in and out than the issue being forced on them.
Countries within EU must have the power to limit both emigration and immigration. Without I see nothing but catastrophe for Europe.

 

[oldtom]

The two principles should be independent and negotiable by individual countries within or without eu.

With respect Zlatan, I really think you need to take a step back and re-consider what the EU is all about.

I say that because in your concluding statement, were the various sovereign nations to follow your advice, there would be no EU at all as we know it. It is precisely because the two principles to which you refer remain tenets of EU membership that so much progress has been made over the last half-century. To introduce trade barriers or restrict freedom of movement for the peoples of the 28 nation states would be to set back European harmony by over 40 years.

There are quite a number of people who just don't 'get' the EU but most of those cannot even distinguish between the UK political system and the EU anyway. That is a failing of our education and parliamentary systems. From my experience, the reason we are in this political morass today is because so many of our countrymen cannot break away from their inherited racism.

Therein lies the reason why a fascist monster like Farage was able to appeal to all the far-right racist groups - it was never to do with economics nor sovereignty, or unelected people holding sway over the UK and creating laws which somehow offends people.

It is simply an accident of birth which determines nationality and I, for one, prefer to be recognised as a member of the human race first and foremost. For the human race to progress further, we need to get away from all the things that have divided us over centuries and create a more harmonious and equitable society. That is within our gift to do but we will never achieve that by destroying the great work that has been done since the end of WW2.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

I don't want to be simply an EU Citizen and neither does another 52% of voting public.
Perhaps all the remain campaigners should be as honest as Flecc, and point out for eu to work all its individual constituents must hand over sovereignty??? No thanks. Blair , Cameron,Osbourne, and Farage are bad enough but Junkhers and his sycophants are both unelected and far worse..Do we really need another layer if corruption. One corrupt but elected governance is enough waste.. Thanks but no thanks. Blair should be shot, Juhnkers locked up. Cameron deported. Osbourne made to work at some inner city School.
Think best solution is reestablish monarchy. Keeps number of scavengers down and in one place.

Having read and re-read your post #7141 Zlatan, I'm bound to say it's a shame you didn't join in this discussion 7,000 posts ago - you might have learned something!

What you have written is nothing but shameful, bigoted nonsense.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Good post Derf. Agree with most of it.

Flecc
Why should I be questioned about not wanting to be a Citizen of EU ? I don't ...end of. Full stop.
None of your business.
Why don't you want to be a UK citizen ? ( dont answer.its rhetorical)

Oh Dear! unable to articulate a valid reason so the door comes down?
I see, and the reason for non participation in the referendum becomes clear too.
A case of "Don't question me, I've made my mind up!"
For someone so critical of the attitudes of people on here when you arrived you should really take some of your own advice.
You have the oddest attitude where you take an extreme stance, claim that 52% of the population support you in that odd stance then get on a high horse about it as if the question is offensive?
My mistake. I assumed you came on here to debate, not just rant; don't let me detain you. after all it's none of my business if you wish to seem a fool.

 

[flecc]

Think Flecc has hit nail on head, in that his assumption for EU to be successful it must become a single nation. Unfortunately there is no way on earth that will ever happen and its certainly not what folk thought( accepted big assumption) when we had the first joke vote ( referendum) AFTER already having joined..
I don't want to be simply an EU Citizen and neither does another 52% of voting public.
Perhaps all the remain campaigners should be as honest as Flecc, and point out for eu to work all its individual constituents must hand over sovereignty??? No thanks. Blair , Cameron,Osbourne, and Farage are bad enough but Junkhers and his sycophants are both unelected and far worse..Do we really need another layer if corruption. One corrupt but elected governance is enough waste.. Thanks but no thanks. Blair should be shot, Juhnkers locked up. Cameron deported. Osbourne made to work at some inner city School.
Think best solution is reestablish monarchy. Keeps number of scavengers down and in one place.

Thanks Zlatan, I've always been honest in declaring my belief in the EU target of full integration into a country called Europe.

However you are making a mistake in your objections to such as Junckers, EU commission etc. They are the interim drivers towards the target, people with the same belief as me. Once the objective is achieved they cease to exist in their driving role, the elected EU parliament takes over as the EU federal government with the member country governments then as state legislatures. In other words, direct parallels of the USA, Australia and Canada. In Europe then as in those other federal countries now, the states legislatures will have considerable powers, often including overrruling the federal laws with their own and being the primary vehicle of taxation. Just what the Brexiters want!
.

 

[flecc]

Flecc
Why should I be questioned about not wanting to be a Citizen of EU ? I don't ...end of. Full stop.
None of your business.

Because democracy makes it as much my business as yours. It's what our voting means, getting all of our opinions.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Tom
Perhaps you,d like to explain exactly which part bigoted, which part shamefull ?

Flecc
No it does not. I,m entitled to any opinion I wish without justification. Its called freedom. I don't want to join local golf club either.. Putin could be asking us
"Why don't you want to be part of our system,I think its better than yours?"

Its exactly why all opinion polls are wrong. Folk are put under pressure to have the accepted opinion, the PC opinion, the opinion dominated by such as yourself but then when people vote they vote honestly. That's democracy. Thankfully. Its why this thread is dominated by remainers. Folk aren't allowed to express their true opinions.Its exactly why Trump won and why the referendum went as it did and would do so again.

Seems to me you either agree with general consensus on here or you get called bigoted and shameful. That's shameful and should not be a part of any forum let alone a cycling one.

 

[flecc]

Flecc
No it does not. I,m entitled to any opinion I wish without justification. Its called freedom.

I think you misunderstand me. I meant it's as much my business in the sense that I'm entitled to a democratic opinion too. But of course that doesn't gainsay your opinion in any way which I respect your right to have.

Nor does it entitle me to insult you for having an opinion I disagree with. We can argue about another's basis for their opinion, but not dismiss that opinion itself as worthless simply because we don't agree with it.
.

 

[Zlatan]

I think you misunderstand me. I meant it's as much my business in the sense that I'm entitled to a democratic opinion too. But of course that doesn't gainsay your opinion in any way which I respect your right to have.

Nor does it entitle me to insult you for having an opinion I disagree with. We can argue about another's basis for their opinion, but not dismiss that opinion itself as worthless simply because we don't agree with it.
.

Totally agree Flecc, perhaps your comment will be understood by Tom and OG ?( or directed at them ? perhaps it was ?)
Tom , the acid test for being part of Human Race is (IMO) being humane. I consider myself as qualifying and hence part of human race.Do you ?
Over course of this thread you have called posters scum, idiots, bigoted and shameful.
??? You doing so and it being tolerated are both bizar. Good evening Tom. Hope you have a happy Christmas.

 

[flecc]

Totally agree Flecc, perhaps your comment will be understood by Tom and OG ?( or directed at them ? perhaps it was ?)

It was really just an expression of my belief and practice, not directed, but inherently that can infer disapproval of course.
.

 

[derf]

With respect Zlatan, I really think you need to take a step back and re-consider what the EU is all about.

I say that because in your concluding statement, were the various sovereign nations to follow your advice, there would be no EU at all as we know it. It is precisely because the two principles to which you refer remain tenets of EU membership that so much progress has been made over the last half-century. To introduce trade barriers or restrict freedom of movement for the peoples of the 28 nation states would be to set back European harmony by over 40 years.

There are quite a number of people who just don't 'get' the EU but most of those cannot even distinguish between the UK political system and the EU anyway. That is a failing of our education and parliamentary systems. From my experience, the reason we are in this political morass today is because so many of our countrymen cannot break away from their inherited racism.

Therein lies the reason why a fascist monster like Farage was able to appeal to all the far-right racist groups - it was never to do with economics nor sovereignty, or unelected people holding sway over the UK and creating laws which somehow offends people.

It is simply an accident of birth which determines nationality and I, for one, prefer to be recognised as a member of the human race first and foremost. For the human race to progress further, we need to get away from all the things that have divided us over centuries and create a more harmonious and equitable society. That is within our gift to do but we will never achieve that by destroying the great work that has been done since the end of WW2.

Tom

couldn't agree more, especially re choosing to be a member of the human race, which is about ethics and values, as opposed to the accident of birth that causes "nationality", a hypothetical construct used to manipulate naïve members of the electorate.

 

[oldtom]

Totally agree Flecc, perhaps your comment will be understood by Tom and OG ?( or directed at them ? perhaps it was ?)
Tom , the acid test for being part of Human Race is (IMO) being humane. I consider myself as qualifying and hence part of human race.Do you ?
Over course if this thread you have called posters scum, idiots, bigoted and shameful.
??? You doing so and it being tolerated is bizar.

Zlatan, your right to hold opinion is something I cherish. Your right to talk nonsense is something else!

Have you ever heard the expression, 'Sometimes it's better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and prove it.'? It seems to me you don't understand such fundamentals let alone the intricacies of the EU.

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

Tom if I were you I,d start practising what I preach and stop calling people bigots. ( you have not identified any justifiable reason for doing so, because there isn,t one. You and I have never met, unlikely to do so, never spoke and hardly communicated on here, yet you feel justified in calling me a bigot.Its actually quite amusing, rather like Mr Angry.
Perhaps this is some kind of test for newbies ? Come on please let on..nobody can be as ignorant as Tom..Surely you are all ganging up and going to pm tomorrow and say its some kind of initiation? Lets hope so.
Or is this the thread where all the loonies post and sensible people stay away ?

Or perhaps its a competition to see who can break most rules ? Tom is winning, he,s broken 2 , 3 and 4 in one post. OG isn't far behind..perhaps overall he,s winning?? I,ll check.

 

[derf]

Totally agree Flecc, perhaps your comment will be understood by Tom and OG ?( or directed at them ? perhaps it was ?)
Tom , the acid test for being part of Human Race is (IMO) being humane. I consider myself as qualifying and hence part of human race.Do you ?
Over course of this thread you have called posters scum, idiots, bigoted and shameful.
??? You doing so and it being tolerated are both bizar. Good evening Tom. Hope you have a happy Christmas.

to be fair, tom called posters who engaged in bigoted, shameful insulting so - quite rightly. being humane can include insisting that others treat each other and oneself with a degree of humanity and respect. freedom of expression does not include the right to abuse others.
farage and le penn and trump are bigots - shameful populists prying on the underlying racist, sexist prejudice amongst less informed parts of the electorate. that's not an opinion. it's a fact substantiated by their many vile statements. anyone who does not condemn them is also a bigot and racist. we live in a relatively free society, but that freedom does not include the freedom to be racist.

 

[Zlatan]

Fair point derf. I have no issue with Tom at all, but to be called a bigot and him not be able to say why is ( IMO) inexplicable. I know I,m not a bigot and if something I,ve posted sounds bigoted please point it out. I,d either delete it and apologise or explain exactly what was meant. Perhaps he thinks I,m somebody else ? Who knows

By the way I criticised Trump, Garage etal. But not doing so does not make anyone a bigot. Not criticizing Hitler does not make a person a fascist. He worked wonders fir German industry, Porsche and Volkswagen and their road network. Saying any of this does not make me a fascist or Nazi supporter.

Tom supports labour and by inference Blair. Does that mean he supports Blair's warmongering.Ofcourse not.
We should guard against polarisation of groups and opinions. Chances are we can all see the good and bad on both sides.

Good post tho Derf.

 

[oldgroaner]

Tom if I were you I,d start practising what I preach and stop calling people bigots. ( you have not identified any justifiable reason for doing so, because there isn,t one. You and I have never met, unlikely to do so, never spoke and hardly communicated on here, yet you feel justified in calling me a bigot.Its actually quite amusing, rather like Mr Angry.
Perhaps this is some kind of test for newbies ? Come on please let on..nobody can be as ignorant as Tom..Surely you are all ganging up and going to pm tomorrow and say its some kind of initiation? Lets hope so.
Or is this the thread where all the loonies post and sensible people stay away ?

Or perhaps its a competition to see who can break most rules ? Tom is winning, he,s broken 2 , 3 and 4 in one post. OG isn't far behind..perhaps overall he,s winning?? I,ll check.

Excuse me for asking, but how can someone who comes on here as a Barrack Room lawyer, berating all present and pontificating on the rules, have the arrogance to stand in judgement of my or anyone elses actions?
Throughout this thread I have taken a position against leaving the EU and welcomed argument opposing my point of view, and been regularly attacked when no one so far including you have been able to advance a positive and lucid argument in favour of Brexit.
My responses have been measured during these attacks as I take the view that people like yourself are not in possession of sufficient true facts to have come to a practical conclusion.
The previous pro Brexit "champions" have all without exception used either diversionary tactics, or like yourself used both them and gratuitous attacks in the hope that you can cover up that you really have nothing positive to say.
Perhaps this is some test for newbies? you ask, no, the test for newbies is that they come with some credible ideas, that can be discussed and debated, not arrive as if they are Marshall Dillon with a tin star intent of pacifying the rowdy locals..
Which is what you did, and then proved to have no understanding of how the EU works, and no intention of ever taking the trouble to learn.
So you think I break many rules? yet reserve the right to blatantly do so yourself as you have in this post.
To sum up, you came on here to express angst on the way contributors behave on the thread on a subject that since you have said you didn't vote on, cannot be of interest to you, and simply wanted to make a nuisance of yourself. and have gone full circle to making attacks once again.
How disappointing, I was hoping you could add something positive.

 

[oldgroaner]

Fair point derf. I have no issue with Tom at all, but to be called a bigot and him not be able to say why is ( IMO) inexplicable. I know I,m not a bigot and if something I,ve posted sounds bigoted please point it out. I,d either delete it and apologise or explain exactly what was meant. Perhaps he thinks I,m somebody else ? Who knows

By the way I criticised Trump, Garage etal. But not doing so does not make anyone a bigot. Not criticizing Hitler does not make a person a fascist. He worked wonders fir German industry, Porsche and Volkswagen and their road network. Saying any of this does not make me a fascist or Nazi supporter.

Tom supports labour and by inference Blair. Does that mean he supports Blair's warmongering.Ofcourse not.
We should guard against polarisation of groups and opinions. Chances are we can all see the good and bad on both sides.

Good post tho Derf.

Off topic again, as usual

 

[Kudoscycles]

Carney (B of E) has been got at by this government through the Brexit process...there was a stage when they wanted the pound to dive,Carney lowered interest rates when he should have raised rates to support the pound,he was obviously not independent.
He is now aware that the civil service and the B of E cannot possibly do all the work on Brexit in 2 years (the EU now want 14 months),May seems to criticise his care.
What is May about? Her interview today suggested a PM who was incapable and frightened of Brexit,quite pathetic.....I have always thought that she had some plan that she would reveal at the right moment,but it worries me that she is delaying in the hope that some miracle will come along to take her out of this mess.
What do other forum members think about May?
KudosDave