Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

In the Daily Mirror
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/holidaying-boris-johnsons-four-letter-21215544

Holidaying Boris Johnson's 'four-letter response' to killing of Iranian General
Boris Johnson reportedly uttered an abrupt, four-letter response when he was told of Donald Trump ’s drone strike on a top Iranian general: “F***.”
The Prime Minister, who has been enjoying a sun-drenched luxury island holiday since Boxing Day, was informed of the killing of General Qassem Soleimani over the phone on Friday.
Mr Johnson is expected to return to London in time for ministerial meetings in Number 10 on Monday.
The Sunday Mirror understands no ministerial COBRA meetings have taken place in the Prime Minister’s absence to discuss the crisis.

Not a good start Boris!

Rather reduces the power of our Trident deterrent if it takes three days to get the attention of the Prime Minister!!
We would be relying on the judgement of the Subs Captain as to whether Boris was dead or off partying with his girlfriend

I nearly missed this choice snippet

"Mr Johnson infamously refused to cut short a family holiday to Canada in 2011 while he was Mayor of London to deal with the outbreak of riots in the capital.

It was three days before he agreed to return from his summer getaway - and he faced angry heckles when he arrived in Clapham, broom in hand, to assist with the clean up.

Perhaps he will consider stopping off at Baghdad and offer his services with a broom?

 

[Zlatan]

In the Daily Mirror
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/holidaying-boris-johnsons-four-letter-21215544

Holidaying Boris Johnson's 'four-letter response' to killing of Iranian General
Boris Johnson reportedly uttered an abrupt, four-letter response when he was told of Donald Trump ’s drone strike on a top Iranian general: “F***.”
The Prime Minister, who has been enjoying a sun-drenched luxury island holiday since Boxing Day, was informed of the killing of General Qassem Soleimani over the phone on Friday.
Mr Johnson is expected to return to London in time for ministerial meetings in Number 10 on Monday.
The Sunday Mirror understands no ministerial COBRA meetings have taken place in the Prime Minister’s absence to discuss the crisis.

Not a good start Boris!

Rather reduces the power of our Trident deterrent if it takes three days to get the attention of the Prime Minister!!
We would be relying on the judgement of the Subs Captain as to whether Boris was dead or off partying with his girlfriend

It seems our military has already swung into action without Boris in country. A Type 23 Frigate, Type 45 Destroyer and a Nuclear powered Sub are already within striking distance of Iran. Thats roughly a thousand Tomahawk missiles... Just from UK.
SAS and SBS taken off training and tasked with protecting Embassies. All rather frightening.
Americans are already moaning at response from EU (including UK).
Israel and Saudi have given full support apparently we haven't... Yet.
How many more centuries will it take for human race to reach maturity? .What are we doing???
I still cant figure out wether we are dealing with a problem or causing one.

 

[Woosh]

I still cant figure out wether we are dealing with a problem or causing one.

causing one.
Trump is an inept leader. We should call an emergency meeting at the UN security council to discuss how to reduce the tension.

 

[Woosh]

Boris Johnson reportedly uttered an abrupt, four-letter response when he was told of Donald Trump ’s drone strike on a top Iranian general: “F***.”

BJ is good at delegating responsibility but some times, choices have to be made and can't be delegated.

 

[Woosh]

which one is your favourite candidate to take over from JC?
I watched them doing their Sunday TV interviews.
For my life, I could not see how Lisa Nandy would face Bojo at PMQs.

 

[oldgroaner]

It seems our military has already swung into action without Boris in country. A Type 23 Frigate, Type 45 Destroyer and a Nuclear powered Sub are already within striking distance of Iran. Thats roughly a thousand Tomahawk missiles... Just from UK.
SAS and SBS taken off training and tasked with protecting Embassies. All rather frightening.
Americans are already moaning at response from EU (including UK).
Israel and Saudi have given full support apparently we haven't... Yet.
How many more centuries will it take for human race to reach maturity? .What are we doing???
I still cant figure out wether we are dealing with a problem or causing one.

Couldn't agree more!
And what makes it worse is Trump's timing, when Boris needs a trade deal like yesterday!

 

[oldgroaner]

Lame excuse of the day
"Tory sources said his silence was more likely to be part of a co-ordinated effort by EU leaders to say little in order not to inflame the situation. "

Hang on a minute, are we expected to fall for that?
And note the words "more likely" which roughly translated means
We haven't the slightest idea what he's doing or why!

 

[Zlatan]

which one is your favourite candidate to take over from JC?
I watched them doing their Sunday TV interviews.
For my life, I could not see how Lisa Nandy would face Bojo at PMQs.

I, m hoping Starmer who seems to be saying right things (IMHO). He will moderate party but will face opposition from McCluskey (who was against Starmer's Remain stance) and from Corbyn's supporters. (they see him as like and supporting Blair)
But being favourite normally writes chances off... Who knows. They are all currently trying to outdo each other with anti Trump/USA rhetoric, but that might prove a mistake, again.

 

[flecc]

I guess it's difficult for a millenial to understand what the enthusiasm was like among those few of us with an Antex soldering iron, a pile of Practical Wireless magazines and a PCB making kit! Masters of the universe we were!

PCBs? I go right back to valves and hard wired connections!

Including when electronic manufacturing for military contracts had to have all the wired joints made mechanically secure by twisting together before soldering.
.

 

[Barry Shittpeas]

which one is your favourite candidate to take over from JC?
I watched them doing their Sunday TV interviews.
For my life, I could not see how Lisa Nandy would face Bojo at PMQs.

The only one who has the presence, grace & all round gravitas to represent the country as our Prime Minister is Starmer. The others take on the appearance of the dregs / mouth pieces found in the student common rooms of former colleges of FE, now turned universities.

 

[oldgroaner]

The only one who has the presence, grace & all round gravitas to represent the country as our Prime Minister is Starmer. The others take on the appearance of the dregs / mouth pieces found in the student common rooms of former colleges of FE, now turned universities.

I agree on that appearance and presence are needed for that job

 

[oldgroaner]

Face saving excercise underway
"
Johnson ‘in charge’ of Iran situation despite holiday – Raab
Mr Raab said he has been in “constant contact” with Mr Johnson on issues of foreign policy while the Prime Minister has been on holiday, and spoke to him on Friday over the situation in the Middle East.
Hands up those who believe this?

Then of course there is this

"We’ve had three Cobra meetings where Mark Sedwill, the chief civil servant, has had to chair it because the Prime Minister hasn’t been available.

This sounds far more plausible

And suddenly Raab pipes up
"
Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab has defended the US over its killing of Iranian General Qassem Soleimani, branding the military commander a “regional menace.”
The Conservative MP accused hardliners in Tehran of "nefarious behaviour" and said the United States has the "right of self defence" in an interview on Sunday.

I'm sorry, but for the life of me I cannot see a case for murdering political figures in countries we are not in a state of war with, especially in a volatile area.
Regardless how odious the target was, this is not the way civilised nations behave.
It's a sign of degeneracy
Not just a Crime it's liable to result in the deaths of many innocent people, and all because Trump hasn't been placed into a Dementia care environment where he can do no more harm

 

[flecc]

I'm sorry, but for the life of me I cannot see a case for murdering political figures in countries we are not in a state of war with, especially in a volatile area.
Regardless how odious the target was, this is not the way civilised nations behave.

Regardless of whether the action was wise, I differ on this.

Qassem Soleimani was not a politician, he was an Iranian General operating as a soldier with Iranian official approval in procuring the killing of numerous Americans, many of them also soldiers.

That is legally a state of war, so retaliation by killing the general was a legitimate act of defensive war and did not constitute murder.
.

 

[oyster]

Regardless of whether the action was wise, I differ on this.

Qassem Soleimani was not a politician, he was an Iranian General operating as a soldier with Iranian official approval in procuring the killing of numerous Americans, many of them also soldiers.

That is legally a state of war, so retaliation by killing the general was a legitimate act of defensive war and did not constitute murder.
.

Just imagine if Qassem Soleimani had been in Russia, North Korea, China or even the UK. Can you see the USA taking that action in any of those countries? I think not. The impact on Iraq could be enormous but they are not strong enough to even eject USA from their own territory. Effectively it is an act of war against Iraq (even if the intended target was Iranian).

 

[flecc]

Effectively it is an act of war against Iraq (even if the intended target was Iranian).

Not so, in a state of war against a country, in this case Iran, action can legally be against the military of that country in any other country where they are operating. That is especially true when the target is operating with support from within the third party country, as in this case.

Just think of all the Germans we killed in many different countries during WW2. That didn't mean it was an act of war against all those other countries.
.

 

[Woosh]

That is legally a state of war, so retaliation by killing the general was a legitimate act of defensive war and did not constitute murder.

you need to take into account where the attack took place: a civilian airport in a sovereign, neutral country in this context.
I wouldn't be surprised that the attack be declared an assassination under international law.

 

[flecc]

you need to take into account where the attack took place: a civilian airport in a sovereign, neutral country in this context.
I wouldn't be surprised that the attack be declared an assassination under international law.

I disagree on several grounds. Firstly the General had with his country's approval created a legitimate state of war between Iran and the USA, entitling the USA to defend itself by action against any Iranian military target. Secondly the Iranian general was operating with support from Iraqi militant groups for his Iranian objectives, making those Iraqis de facto Iranian military within Iraq and open to retaliation.

And of course it has to be taken into account that the USA is still militarily operational in Iraq.

Whether an assassination is declared under international law is meaningless, since international law by trial has long been nothing more than playing politics and settling scores.
.

 

[Danidl]

Regardless of whether the action was wise, I differ on this.

Qassem Soleimani was not a politician, he was an Iranian General operating as a soldier with Iranian official approval in procuring the killing of numerous Americans, many of them also soldiers.

That is legally a state of war, so retaliation by killing the general was a legitimate act of defensive war and did not constitute murder.
.

I can see that point of view, but there is another. Iraq is a sovereign state, the US ignited bombs on its surface . That is an act of war against Iraq,and the US action would normally be called terrorism. The US is not at war with Iran,as far as I know. Such action has not been authorised by the US Congress. So the excuse of being at War does not work.
The proper action was for the US to request extradition from the Iraqi authorities for this gentleman,if they had evidence that he was plotting or had killed US servicemen . One might argue that this would not have been honoured, but it would gave curtailed movement.
Now plotting to kill servicemen of other countries is not a crime..Its what the DoD , NATO and the WarOffice do everyday. Killing servicemen, outside of clearly defined war zones ,and before hostilities have been declared is murder.
No the international community must condemn this action, and demand the rule of law.

 

[Zlatan]

you need to take into account where the attack took place: a civilian airport in a sovereign, neutral country in this context.
I wouldn't be surprised that the attack be declared an assassination under international law.

Trouble there is merit in both your's and Flecc's arguments.
I have no doubt Soleimani has been responsible for far more deaths than Trump has been and is a legitimate target but it must also be recognised killing him is an escalation and likely to cause more of what the killing purported in reducing.
Was the killing of Bin Laden, Gadaffi and a good few others justified or legitimate? Has their killings made world safer? Did the destruction of Libyan infrastructure help situation?
I, m just glad I, m not actually making any of these decisions.
Trump might have just started WW3, on the other hand he might have just prevented it? Another few years and Iran will have fully functioning and probably long range nuclear missiles.
Should Soliemani go unpunished?
Is it Trumps responsibility?
Should it not be UN carrying out any controlled action against transgressors/ terrorists?
Reading reader comments in many newspapers it seems Trump has far more support than I expected.???

 

[Zlatan]

I can see that point of view, but there is another. Iraq is a sovereign state, the US ignited bombs on its surface . That is an act of war against Iraq,and the US action would normally be called terrorism. The US is not at war with Iran,as far as I know. Such action has not been authorised by the US Congress. So the excuse of being at War does not work.
The proper action was for the US to request extradition from the Iraqi authorities for this gentleman,if they had evidence that he was plotting or had killed US servicemen . One might argue that this would not have been honoured, but it would gave curtailed movement.
Now plotting to kill servicemen of other countries is not a crime..Its what the DoD , NATO and the WarOffice do everyday. Killing servicemen, outside of clearly defined war zones ,and before hostilities have been declared is murder.
No the international community must condemn this action, and demand the rule of law.

Is that called appeasement Danidl?
We all know argument against that.
And in mean time Embassies carry on being attacked and people killed?
Dont get me wrong Danidl, I, m not actually saying you are wrong, but there are consequences to both lines of action(inaction?). We always consider carefully the consequences of being proactive but fail to do so for inaction, and things can drift to a much worse place. Old argument, but had Churchill had his way in 1935 WW2 may well have been avoided. (or perhaps just delayed and made worse???)
Trouble is, nobody really knows. Its a judgement call.