Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Who knows how this will play out. These are the opening gambits on both sides.

But now we know our side has some solidity behind it - we have some metal. We got bitten the first time - we've retreated and come back stronger. And they know it.

It's a completely different negotiation now. We can go all out for broke if we want. We have the power in parliament now. We have parliament behind us now. Ha. How much better that is than it was. Oh sure all your poor people who think it would be an unmitigated disaster and are peeing your pants at the remote possibility will not like hearing this - but all you have to do is hang on tight and watch. It's not like your area is suddenly going to drop into abject poverty - regardless of the scare stories you've been told.

The problem is two fold first we have no power in the EU other than bluff, and we've even been stupid enough to corner ourselves into not allowing an extension.
So now the fate of the nations future rests on the sole judgement of a man who is a liar, cheat and has the scruples of a sewer rat.
And you adopt a holier than thou attitude for placing your faith in this charlatan?
As I said an accomplice to the disaster to come, not a victim, foolish choice to have made.

 

[Zlatan]

You really couldn't be more hopelessly wrong if you tried to be.

Just look at how much more advanced the long standing EU countries are than us. Their roads, their railways, their airports coverage, their pensions and benefits systems and scales, their shorter working weeks, the speed of response and quality of their medical systems. All brought about by changes by their coalition governments.

Now look at the poor state of those in the UK and wake up to the fact that is we who have stagnated due to our first post the post system making for political confict and almost nothing being achieved. One party gains power and brings something in, then the other gets its turn and reverses that. It's already started with Johnson promising to undo many earlier social changes.

It's the changes brought about by agreement in coalition governments that become permanent change.

And all this without mentioning how hugely successful many of those EU countries are at exporting to all countries worldwide while being in the EU, something our politicians say isn't possible!
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Hows France doing Flecc? They have FPTWP. I suspect the better infrastructure has more to do with spending than voting. Those countries doing apparently well spend much bigger %age of GDP than we do on infrastructure, welfare etc.

 

[flecc]

live, work and study in all 28, soon to be 27, EU member states

One note, it's going back to at least 28 soon.

Macedonia, renamed to get Greek agreement is joining the EU shortly:

"On 12 June 2018, an agreement was reached between Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras and his Macedonian counterpart Zoran Zaev, known as the Prespa agreement,[7] under which the country would be renamed the "Republic of North Macedonia". As part of this deal, Greece explicitly withdrew its previous opposition, allowing the EU to approve on June 27, 2018 the start of accession talks with the future Republic of North Macedonia."

The accession of Albania is tied to that of Macedonia and they are likely to join the EU at the same time.
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[flecc]

Hows France doing Flecc? They have FPTWP. I suspect the better infrastructure has more to do with spending than voting. Those countries doing apparently well spend much bigger %age of GDP than we do on infrastructure, welfare etc.

Of course, supporting my point that they govern better.

But what you seem to be missing in the PR argument is that the majority position that FPTWP gives to the winner is that the winner is more often than not a coalition. In your example Italy it always is.
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[Zlatan]

Of course, supporting my point that they govern better.

But what you seem to be missing in the PR argument is that the majority position that FPTWP gives to the winner is that the winner is more often than not a coalition. In your example Italy it always is.
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Is there proportional representation in France?

Apart from the UK, France is the only other European democracy not to use some form of proportional representation for its state-wide elections (Here’s a list of voting systems use

www.electoral-reform.org.uk

France is not PR so you can not put your so called better governence down to PR.

 

[flecc]

Is there proportional representation in France?

Apart from the UK, France is the only other European democracy not to use some form of proportional representation for its state-wide elections (Here’s a list of voting systems use

www.electoral-reform.org.uk

France is not PR so you can not put your so called better governence down to PR.

Picking the one exception from 27 proves the opposite of what you are trying to do.
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[Zlatan]

Picking the one exception from 27 proves the opposite of what you are trying to do.
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Probably, but it also proves PR can not be credited with the outcomes you suggest, especially so when it is considered no PR systems utilised within EU are actually solely PR. Even in Danidl's example the PR is engineered to hopefully give a working majority to the dominant party, sort of like ours (and France's do).

 

[oldgroaner]

The most puzzling part of Johno's policy is this business of capping the Transition period to one year. when he actually has no need to do so.
Does he really imagine he can bully the EU when our trade to them is 10% to them and 50% from them to us?
Imagine what will happen. During the year traders in the EU, realising there is no future in the UK market will slowly back off and divert the business elsewhere, either within the EU, or into the other Forty odd trade deal available to them, and the banks will go with them.
Nothing we can do about that , nowhere else to turn where we enjoy the same advantages that they do.
In our own interests he would do better to drop that stupid millstone and leave the process open ended, to give time to get something better than a deal they have outnumbered, out thought and conned his amateur negotiators with simply so he can boast about keeping his word and seem a macho man.

 

[Danidl]

Hang on a minute Danidl. Your system is not quite full PR, where number of seats correlates to number of votes.
Yours is a system of first past the quota mark. (quota is number of votes/ number of seats)
So, if I understand it, lets say 2,000,000 votes are cast. The quota id 2,000,000 divided by 160. So as soon as a candidate achieves 12,500 votes they are appointed. Any spare are then given to next favourite candidate.
Yes, its a form of PR but not pure PR. (In pure PR the number of a parties serving candidates divided by total number of seats will give same percentage as %age of votes receieved. Yours can and does vary.
Your system should give a majority, yes I know it doesnt always but neither does ours. (I might be reading yours wrong)
In a true only PR system a 45% vote of populace voting would give 45% of seats. It doesnt with your Irish system. In example quoted in Wiki your leader (2011) achieved 36% of vote. That would give 56 seats in PR only system. He had 76...???

If Ireland had a single constituency with 160 seats , and used the system we have now,yes the overall representation in the Dail would closely mirror the popular vote .. but not the first preference popular vote , the eight hundredth preference would matter just as much.
A persons vote continues to count and be active in selecting a representative, until either their nth preference has been elected or they have stopped giving further preferences.
The key point is that it is the votes which were cast for candidates which were unpopular and eliminated early which are then transferred to other candidates. In a 5 seat constituency, there might be 30 candidates ,and the voter .. myself or others puts a 1,2,3,.....29 against these names.
It is actually very good party politics to not get elected on a first ,second or third count, and certainly not to get two quotas, ..because by keeping party colleagues up near the quota, ensures they don't drop out early. It might be egotism to be able to claim 2 quotas , but not effective politics

 

[flecc]

Probably, but it also proves PR can not be credited with the outcomes you suggest, especially so when it is considered no PR systems utilised within EU are actually solely PR. Even in Danidl's example the PR is engineered to hopefully give a working majority to the dominant party, sort of like ours (and France's do).

Ireland's system isn't remotely like ours and they mostly elect coalitions.

I've never argued for pure PR, only argued against our first past the post system. No other country in the EU has solely first past the post system, winner takes all in one stage, so they have many more coalitions which are a superior way of governing.

That's why they are so much more advanced than us, as I demonstrated to OJ with the facts.
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[Zlatan]

Ireland's system isn't remotely like ours and they mostly elect coalitions.

I've never argued for pure PR, only argued against our first past the post system. No other country in the EU has solely first past the post system, winner takes all in one stage, so they have many more coalitions which are a superior way of governing.

That's why they are so much more advanced than us, as I demonstrated to OJ with the facts.
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I could agree with you but then we, d both be wrong.
I, m having a Whisky...
Think we both agree there is room for electoral reform in UK, but it wont have the affect you hope flecc.
Besides, we need a Labour government to even consider electoral reform. Thats not going to happen for at least 10 years, thanks to our current crop of so called Labour mps.

 

[oldgroaner]

The problem for Johno is that if he can't get a trade deal that satisfies EU regulations, then he isn't likely get one with any of the nations that already have a trade deal with the EU
And that is true if we end up with no deal, so we end up relegated to the second division of nations unable to match up to EU requirements.
India for instance has stated that Free movement of people would be part of any trade agreement.
And the Americans are out there waiting to pounce and impose far more stringent conditions than the ones we left the EU allegedly to escape before they condescend to dump inferior product on us and treat us a a client state.

The problem we are facing is that the rest of the world knows a desperate nation when it sees one, and our situation is just that , we are not the "Workshop of the World" any more with a mighty merchant sea borne trade Empire
We struggle to qualify as a "pawnshop cum betting shop"
When it comes to trade deals for us it will be a case of clutching at whatever straws are offered. so long as it's a quickie.

 

[OxygenJames]

You really do get more deluded, Boris is going to let you down isn't he? he doesn't give a damn for you , me or anyone else but himself

iyho

 

[oyster]

I see that they are spending wasting yet more money on money:

A new commemorative Brexit 50p coin has been ordered by the government, after the first batch had to be melted down by the Royal Mint because they featured the wrong date.

The chancellor, Sajid Javid, originally ordered production of the original Brexit memorial coin earlier this year but around 1m coins had to be recycled because they were marked with the original departure date of 31 October.

And with the resounding Conservative victory in the general election clearing the path for Brexit on 31 January, the government has decided to have another go. Thenew coin will feature the date of the UK’s departure from the EU next to the slogan “Peace, prosperity and friendship with all nations”.

(Given the way the pound is sliding, they should at least have made it a pound coin. )

 

[oldgroaner]

iyho

No. he has already started, you just don't want to see it do you? things get changed form one week to the next, with no guarantee they wont be changed back net week, like the backtracking on workers right and orphan refugees.

 

[OxygenJames]

Ireland's system isn't remotely like ours and they mostly elect coalitions.

I've never argued for pure PR, only argued against our first past the post system. No other country in the EU has solely first past the post system, winner takes all in one stage, so they have many more coalitions which are a superior way of governing.

That's why they are so much more advanced than us, as I demonstrated to OJ with the facts.
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Your idea of facts not mine. There are plenty of places in Spain I'd not want to live - or Italy - or France - or lots of places. You say they have better railways - stations - roads - etc. Last time I changed stations in France at the Gare Du Nord from the Eurostar it wasn't a patch on St Pancras. Some of the French roads are terrible (those around Calais for example) - and look at the social problems in France compared to here - the slums and ghettos in Paris the police won't go in - the whole problem they still have with their immigrants from N. Africa/Morocco. The Netherlands dealing with drug cartels murdering people in the streets the amount of drugs money going through the place - Germany about to hit a massive economic crisis - the far right in both France and Germany a horrible spectacle. Then there's the basket cases of Greece and parts of Italy and Spain. The unemployment rates down there a consequence of insisting the Euro remains as the currency as it is. How the continual coalitions creates social disharmony because nothing ever changes. How fed up people are in many places - way worse than here. Look at M Le Pen - the support she gets. Look at the protests in France - how long have they been going on for? Italy still a basket case. You can easy present an opposite view to yours.

 

[OxygenJames]

No. he has already started, you just don't want to see it do you? things get changed form one week to the next, with no guarantee they wont be changed back net week, like the backtracking on workers right and orphan refugees.

So what? He's in power not you. We voted him in. You gotta get used to it. Find somebody to back - get them elected - get power - and you can decide. Till then you're f*****ed

 

[OxygenJames]

The problem for Johno is that if he can't get a trade deal that satisfies EU regulations, then he isn't likely get one with any of the nations that already have a trade deal with the EU
And that is true if we end up with no deal, so we end up relegated to the second division of nations unable to match up to EU requirements.
India for instance has stated that Free movement of people would be part of any trade agreement.
And the Americans are out there waiting to pounce and impose far more stringent conditions than the ones we left the EU allegedly to escape before they condescend to dump inferior product on us and treat us a a client state.

The problem we are facing is that the rest of the world knows a desperate nation when it sees one, and our situation is just that , we are not the "Workshop of the World" any more with a mighty merchant sea borne trade Empire
We struggle to qualify as a "pawnshop cum betting shop"
When it comes to trade deals for us it will be a case of clutching at whatever straws are offered. so long as it's a quickie.

It's not been a good week for you has it?

 

[OxygenJames]

It appears that former management of Orange – France Telecom as then was – are guilty of creating such a toxic workplace that it led to people committing suicide.

Former executives at France Télécom have been given prison sentences and fines after being found guilty of “institutional harassment” and creating a culture of routine workplace bullying that sparked a number of suicides at the company.
The landmark ruling is likely to send shockwaves through the French business world. It is the first time managers have been held criminally responsible for implementing a general strategy of bullying even if they had not dealt directly with the staff involved.

OK.

It’s worth pointing out that the “wave” of suicides is well within the normal statistical variation for a group of people that size. Each and every suicide is indeed a tragedy and yet they do happen.

The French rate is some 15 per 100,000 per year, we’d thus expect around 15 suicides a year – around note, around – in a company France Telecom’s size. The rate being complained of wasn’t all that different from that.

But let’s ignore that and carry on with what is actually being claimed. The suicides were driven to it by those intolerable working conditions. And some of them appear to have been pretty bad:

For two and a half months, the court listened to the families of the victims and projected letters and photos on a giant screen. One read: “I am committing suicide because of my work at France Telecom, it’s the only cause.”

OK. So, why were they doing this?

Prosecutors say the management created a hostile work environment to get employees to quit, in a restructuring process that former employees allege became so severe that it led some staff to take their own life.

That’s the claim. But why in hell do it that way? Why not just fire people?

Because in France it’s damn near impossible to fire someone who has an employment contract. Thus the only way to downsize the workforce is to terrorise into people leaving. That’s actually the prosecution case.

And, well, shouldn’t we be blaming the laws which mean you can’t fire people? Or even, pointing out that if you can fire people then you don’t need to terrorise them into leaving?
But there we have it, workers’ rights, employment protection, they kill the workers.

Not that anyone is going to take the correct message from this except us illuminati.

 

[OxygenJames]

That's why they are so much more advanced than us, as I demonstrated to OJ with the facts.

If you think it's so much better you could just move there.

How come you stay here?