sure, it will grow into a US enclave (if under trump, how appropriate). on the plus side the EU is free from that, see it cancel TTIP
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Hi flecc
Olodosc, been away a bit..combination of Years .too many visits to the surgeon, and inertia, amused by coming cold to this forum..have been surfing forums a while, but Having a Kalhkoff and spending half time abroad seemed to have little to offer, when so many able bikers were doing this.(thanks for the info on changing my motor cable, in case I was remiss)need some help on changing bike but that, not this forum
Brexit , what a total shambles, as someone who watched (bit young so I clapped) the Luftwaffe drop some fireworks on our house, which my mum put out with some sand, when older felt happier that this was now unthinkable.Europe had grown up...yehh.My Father fought against Franco and Hitler,but I had tea with a Sheikh in a tent in Fallugah, and I had a good friend in Hambourg , who was an SS panzer captain and now worked in a chocolate factory.
Good stuff happening Europe getting bigger, wall down..Good Europe,lets sort ourselves out , let the kids have some drugs (their going to anyhow)
curb the Mafia (made a big start)Warn the very rich (not as successful) learn how to treat workers a bit (unions can help if not demonized)
Then the big Bang..let's show the rest of North Africa just how easy it is to be like us in one year (instead of 150 ) did not seem to work.Oh dear, how sad ...never mind. Oi give us our ball back we will show the rest of the world how to do it.
Ver Sad Oldosc
Lets examine what utterly stupid loud mouth has achieved, yes, I mean Farage, the dolt that tillson admires so much.
For at least 350 plus years it has been the policy of this country to work against hegemony of any group of nations in Europe, becoming so powerful that they represented a serious threat to this country.
Along comes the British Idiot of all time Farage and manages to unit Europe against us, and at one and the same time by instigating a referendum, not only succeeds in a campaign to have us leave, but prevents us having any say in whether or not Europe becomes a superstate of not merely one or two nations, but the whole 26!
And not only that we were in a position to have a say in whether or not the EU has an Army, we could have vetoed the idea, or even been part of it.
Thanks to Farage and all the other lunatic politicians, and of course the good old British Public, who can be kidded with anything, that Army can now be mobilised against us, representing the biggest imaginable Military threat we have ever faced.
And that is without all the other Financial and political consequences that we face.
And where will all the Brexit Politicans be when we the Public face the consequences?
Where they are now. Somewhere safe of course.
For at least 350 plus years it has been the policy of this country to work against hegemony of any group of nations in Europe, becoming so powerful that they represented a serious threat to this country.
Along comes the British Idiot of all time Farage and manages to unit Europe against us, and at one and the same time by instigating a referendum, not only succeeds in a campaign to have us leave, but prevents us having any say in whether or not Europe becomes a superstate of not merely one or two nations, but the whole 26!
And not only that we were in a position to have a say in whether or not the EU has an Army, we could have vetoed the idea, or even been part of it.
Thanks to Farage and all the other lunatic politicians, and of course the good old British Public, who can be kidded with anything, that Army can now be mobilised against us, representing the biggest imaginable Military threat we have ever faced.
And that is without all the other Financial and political consequences that we face.
And where will all the Brexit Politicans be when we the Public face the consequences?
Where they are now. Somewhere safe of course.
This "tiny Scottish idiot woman" got more votes in the 2016 parliamentary elction than the two main opposition parties together.
She has 55 seats in the parliament against the 14 of all the other parties put together.
And her party is united.
I think our English politicians would love to be as idiotic as her.
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And all done with less actual votes almost any other opposition party.
SNP 4.7% of the vote 55 MPs
UKIP 12.6% of the vote 1 MP
Lib Dems 7.9% of the vote 8 MPs
Greens 3.8% of the vote 1 MP
There is nothing clever or remotely democratic about the Tiny Scottish Idiot Woman. She is unpopular and only has a large number of MPs due to a bent voting system, as my numbers prove.
This is why voters feel ignored and why BREXIT won and why right wing politics will gain momentum and dominate throughout Europe in the coming years. I am sorry to say.
tillson my friend, do you realise what you have just asserted?
Are you really agreeing that the Brexit vote will ensure right wing domination thoughout Europe?
Remember it is allegedly about to become a superstate and a militarily powerful one at that?
So now we have a huge right wing, armed to the teeth monolithic 500 Billion strong enemy state across the channel thanks to you voting for Brexit?
And it makes you Sorry?
I do hope so, I really do!
OK I'm kidding but it could be read that way, couldn't it?
I don't really think you meant to agree to that, why not try to rephrase the comment?
Incidentally I'm in agreement it is likely to help the right wing.
Certainly not democratic, but on the contrary the result proves how clever she is, since she used the system they had to good effect for an overwhelming result.
Of course under a proportional representation system the result might be very different, but so would her SNP tactics be of course. She's a politician and for them, expediency rules.
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Lets consider that shall we?
There was a majority of just under 4% in favour of leaving the EU on an Advisory only Referendum that has to be agreed in Parliament before action taken.
The Government has to take it into account and the referendum does not have any legal standing, this was clearly stated, but Brexit voters didn't check, did they?
What is wrong with Parliament carrying out it's legal obligation to the Public?
If it doesn't then the Mob are ruling the Country and not Parliament.
And of course the public have access to all the information and also the experience to make a sound judgement of the legal and treaty implications of any action taken
If that is so we don't actually need a Parliament or civil service do we, lets just have weekly referendums on anything and everything, yes?
Do you disagree with that? and why not?
It would certainly meet your criteria of being "democratic"
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No gray98, you are not wrong, but matters like this are immensely complex both legally and treaty wise, as is most of the mechanism of running a huge economy like ours.
That is why we need to delegate that work to people we have elected.
What would you say if they made a Brexit agreement that turned out badly for you personally, when with proper discussion debate and negotiation one could be obtained that came with no disadvantage?
We have to have faith in the machinery of Government, without it rash decisions will be made and chaos or worse result.
They do work for us, but remember 17million voted for Brexit and 16 million against it, also 28% who could have voted didn't bother, why should they not be considered as well? Society is intended to cater for the needs of ALL the Public, not just a faction that happened to win a vote at one point in time.
Parliament has a responsibility to the entire nation not just a part of it.
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OG I do agree with most of what you say, but I feel that under the EU the people we have delegated to make decisions on behalf of the people of the UK are unable to do so. Also what was the point of having a referendum if the peoples representatives feel they can just ignore the result and impose their preferences, even though they may be right. To my mind it makes a mockery of democracy. What would have been the reaction if the Scottish government had ignored the result of the independence vote because they thought the result was wrong. Uproar in parliament I would imagine. I don't think that anyone realistically expected the result we got, even those pushing for it, but it's where we are and the sky hasn't fallen in yet and things don't seem to be as bad as was predicted. Now is the time for our ''leaders'' to earn their corn
Nothing has happened yet, and things are gong wrong already, haven't you noticed?
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You keep misquoting statistics to try to insult that Scottish woman.
The vote where the option to vote SNP was available was a majority vote, winning in 56 out of 59 seats. You are taking the argument that Westminster has priority over local elections. In the same argument you say local(UK) elections should have priority over the elected European Parliament, can you see any irony in that?
What such as lower unemployment better performance in services and building sectors. Other than that I haven't noticed anything.
The hypocrisy of the tory scum knows no bounds, it seems.
Not long ago, HM Government was not prepared to concede any ground on the Argentinian claim for possession of the Malvinas. Suddenly, we are shaking hands with their senior politicians discussing the very matters that repeatedly ended in impasse due to British intransigence over a bunch of rocks 99.9% of British residents will never visit and most likely couldn't pinpoint on a map.
Why, it can reasonably be asked, do those who live there believe they have the exclusive right to actually be there? This is just imperialism yet those islands provide no benefit to the exchequer and the inbred population may claim British citizenship but they contribute nothing to the public purse.
A great many British and Argentinian lives were lost thanks to a fascist tory government, led by a megalomaniac who would not have dared (and did not dare) to challenge the Chinese over our 'ownership' of Hong Kong. Even today, we continue to proclaim that Gibraltar is British territory when the world knows it is part of Spain.
This current government is prepared to sacrifice the union with Scotland and possibly NI, as well as Gibraltar, in order to satisfy the lunatic right-wing fringe of their party and the assorted racists, fascists, anarchists and rent-a-mob demonstrators who take advantage of free speech to preach their hatred of all things foreign. Meanwhile, the country is slowly sliding down the slope to hell, the government-controlled media trying to put spin on every news item, hoping for a miracle that might stop the inexorable complete failure of the British economy and way of life.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-37362973
Tom
Not long ago, HM Government was not prepared to concede any ground on the Argentinian claim for possession of the Malvinas. Suddenly, we are shaking hands with their senior politicians discussing the very matters that repeatedly ended in impasse due to British intransigence over a bunch of rocks 99.9% of British residents will never visit and most likely couldn't pinpoint on a map.
Why, it can reasonably be asked, do those who live there believe they have the exclusive right to actually be there? This is just imperialism yet those islands provide no benefit to the exchequer and the inbred population may claim British citizenship but they contribute nothing to the public purse.
A great many British and Argentinian lives were lost thanks to a fascist tory government, led by a megalomaniac who would not have dared (and did not dare) to challenge the Chinese over our 'ownership' of Hong Kong. Even today, we continue to proclaim that Gibraltar is British territory when the world knows it is part of Spain.
This current government is prepared to sacrifice the union with Scotland and possibly NI, as well as Gibraltar, in order to satisfy the lunatic right-wing fringe of their party and the assorted racists, fascists, anarchists and rent-a-mob demonstrators who take advantage of free speech to preach their hatred of all things foreign. Meanwhile, the country is slowly sliding down the slope to hell, the government-controlled media trying to put spin on every news item, hoping for a miracle that might stop the inexorable complete failure of the British economy and way of life.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-37362973
Tom
In practice in what way is the UK different from the EU in this respect?
The UK public elect MPs who in parliament do not implement the will of the people. Here's examples which aren't necessarily any expression of my own views:
The great majority of the public are in favour of the death penalty, either for murder or selected types of murder. Their MPs ensure that will never be restored.
The great majority of the public wanted all form of hunting with dogs completely banned. That didn't happen and the current government party has promised to attempt the restoration of fox hunting.
A very large proportion of the public are in favour of some form of proportional representation, but the principle parties block any chance of that for general elections, voting for their own interests rather than those of the public.
Amost universally the public are sick of unrequested sales contacts, be they telephone calls, junk mail or calling at doors. All these considerable nuisances could be stopped in an instant by outlawing all forms of unrequested sales or services contact. But nothing is ever done since the MPs wouldn't like to upset the business pals who give them a future after parliament.
There are thousands of other examples, and overall our UK parliament record is far worse than the EU record of looking after our individual interests.
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I use to agree with the SNP policy stance in the seventies when they were the only party to opposed joining the EEC
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Actually if you look carefully the iindustrial output figures were lower, but the figure skewed by increased Gas and oil output.
The pound is still falling against the the Dolllar, price rises are appearing on imported items as stocks run down and have to be replenished.
The Employment Figures have long been fiction when most people are now in non permanent work and still in many cases on the poverty line while employed.
Most building sector projects are most certainly not performing better, and neither is the Service section.
The Government still hasn't got a plan for Brexit and faces dissent both in the Lords and the Commons, and Davis has all but admitted that they need a parliamentary vote to come out of the EU.
Meanwhile the EU is going ahead with Federalisation plans and forming an Army we could have prevented being formed.
Oh and by the way not a single promise made by the Brexit politicians has, or even will come true, Immigration is everything they cry!
The Brexit politicians idea of controlling immigration is follows.
This is what "Estabishing Control of Immigration means to them
- Have the menial jobs done by our own indigenous workers and cut their benefits too.
- Deny the better jobs to our own educated kids by denying them the necessary training by importing ready trained EU and overseas professionals as they cost less.
First of all, I am not misquoting statistics. Those numbers that I quoted are the official results of the 2015 general election. So, my first question to you is prove that those statistics are wrong and that I have misquoted them. Otherwise apologise.
Like any other political party in the UK, the SNP could I have fielded a candid it in any constituency in the UK. The fact that they didn't is their business.
The fact remains that the SNP polled less votes in the United Kingdom General Election than UKIP, the liberal democrat's, and the Green Party, but had a perversely larger number of MPs in the United Kingdom Parliament as a result. That it's plain wrong.
The referendum was a different type of election. More akin to proportional representation. The result of that vote was that the United Kingdom should leave the European Union. And that is what will happen.
Although I can't quite believe the perverseness of it, I think you are saying that we should not be allowed to leave the European Union because the majority of European members (other countries included) when taken as a whole, would rather us not do that. That is the most mental thing I have heard so far today but the day is still young, so I don't even think it warrants a reply.
If the United Kingdom wants to leave the European union, it's out productive. There is a mechanism for doing so and that mechanism needs to be initiated immediately.
So, no irony in any of this, and it simply remains for you to disprove the statistics which I have quoted. A good place to start is with typing "UK General Election Results" into Google. Read it and weep.