Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Still trying to play the wrong card

Daniel Kawczynski
Britain helped to liberate half of Europe. She mortgaged herself up to eye balls in process. No Marshall Plan for us only for Germany. We gave up war reparations in 1990. We put £370 billion into EU since we joined. Watch the way ungrateful EU treats us now. We will remember.

We actually were the largest recipient of the Marshall plan and got a third more than Germany.
Britain and France were the main beneficiaries of the Marshall plan, receiving $3.6 billion and $2.2 billion respectively. West Germany received $1.4 billion.
Some eighteen European countries received Plan benefits.
But what's another lie to the leave campaign, and this "We will remember" bit is worn out.

Very few people still alive fought in that war and he certainly wasn't one of them

 

[Woosh]

An even bigger idiot than he seems.
Who are they being irresponsible to? not us as we have already made and agreed a deal with them, and that means they have no further responsibility towards us as they have discharged it very generously.

Fox has a difficult job to do.
He has to convince the believers that it's the EU's fault that he's achieved nothing in nearly 3 years.

 

[oldgroaner]

The expression "Lost the Plot" comes to mind

If we are going to re-run Dunkirk again shouldn't the call go out for the little ships to make their way down to Dover?
We have a couple in Bridlington Harbour that were there on the first Dunkirk, I'm sure they would be delighted to muck in,and we have a flotilla of swan shaped pedales on East Park lake they could take down as deck cargo to run in to pick up small items straight off the beaches.

And to think we were sold Brexit because we wanted to "Trade with the world" and we can't even manage to across the channel!
Utter farce! if someone had made a film about a fictional Brexit five years ago and it had been factually accurate it would have been an utter flop as too fantastic for words.

 

[Zlatan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

Think you should read this OG. Yes, we receieved most from "Marshall Plan" but who wasted it.
Germany invested in infrastructure and industry. Labour squandered ours.

 

[Danidl]

good to see our hard-earned annual EU contributions ending up in the italian Mafias pockets - how nice to see our money going to such a noble cause,
par for the course from the Brussels gangsters!

Sicilian mafia made £2.6bn from swindling EU funds intended for national park

The mafia has earned €3 billion (£2.6 billion) over the last decade siphoning off EU funds intended for a national park in Sicily, according to a former director of the protected area who survived an assassination attempt by the mob.
In 10 years they were able to fraudulently pocket €3 billion, said Mr Antoci, who battled for years to put a stop to the fraud and still has to live under police protection.

He gave an example of a tract of land, covering 1,000 hectares (2,470 acres), which the mafia rented for €36,400 a year.
“They managed to make €1 million or more on those 1,000 hectares,” Mr Antoci explained in his book, The Mafia of the pastures – Europe’s big fraud.
“For years, mafia families terrorised honest landowners and rented land within the park for a few thousand euros, pocketing each year hundreds of thousands of euros from the EU,” he said.
The mafia are nothing if not creative. In one case, they received €200,000 in EU funds to build a bed and breakfast but used the money to construct a villa for a mob family.

It is not just in Sicily that the mafia has supplemented its traditional activities of racketeering, loan-sharking, drug dealing and prostitution with involvement in the farming sector.

It has infiltrated agriculture across the country and has interests right along the food chain, from producers to wholesale markets and restaurants, anti-mafia prosecutors say.
The value of the “agro-mafia business” was estimated at more than €22 billion last year.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/01/cosa-nostra-mafia-made-3bn-swindling-eu-funds-intended-national/

Not a pretty story. It is precisely my concern about things like that, and our own locally born equivalents, that in part fuels my worry about a border. Both you and I living on opposite sides, but not so many miles apart of this border should share the same concern. I can imagine our local mafia types being augemented with unsavoury characters from Romania. This is hopefully not racist, but I am thinking that the pickings would be much richer on an NI/ EU border than Romania/ Albania.

 

[oldgroaner]

Fox has a difficult job to do.
He has to convince the believers that it's the EU's fault that he's achieved nothing in nearly 3 years.

To be fair he's half way there already, the press will support him, and he believes it.
In the scheme of things no one else matters do they?

 

[oldgroaner]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

Think you should read this OG. Yes, we receieved most from "Marshall Plan" but who wasted it.
Germany invested in infrastructure and industry. Labour squandered ours.

I suggest you sign up for a basic course in history and come back later when you know what you are talking about.
For instance
"
Conserving the Beetles! How British soldiers helped save iconic VW car by rescuing blueprints from bomb-hit German factory in 1945

• Russian and American armies first came across VW factory but ignored blueprints
• British Army restarted production and placed order of 20,000 Type 1 Beetles
• In 1949, Volkswagenwerk was formed and factory was handed back to the Germans

Historical evidence shows how plucky British army officers rescued Hitler’s original ‘People’s Car’ and transformed it into the legendary Volkswagen Beetle
The blueprint Beetle plans and associated papers reveal how the British team who re-started production at the factory in 1945 led directory to the re-birth of what is now Europe’s biggest car company and to the revival of the booming German car industry.

The blueprints carry on them the name of one of the key figures - Colonel Charles Radclyffe
The documents were discovered originally by the British army officers in 1945 in the ruins of the Volkswagen factory in North Germany that had switched from pre-war car production to wartime military vehicles and even parts for the infamous V1 rockets or ‘Doodlebugs’ which rained down on Southern England.

The British officers and their team brought back to life what Hitler called his ‘Kraft durch Freude’ (KdF’) – or ‘Strength Through Joy’ – car in a town which carried the same name.

But they gave it back its original name – Volkswagen or ‘People’s Car ‘– and renamed the town Wolfsburg after the local castle.

And the post war labour Government of Clement Attlee rebuilt the country from the ruins which was by far the biggest problem we faced

For instance Hull was the most severely damaged British city or town during the Second World War, with 95 percent of houses damaged
Of a population of approximately 320,000 at the beginning of the war, approximately 152,000 were made homeless as a result of bomb destruction or damage
More than 5,000 houses were destroyed and half of the city centre destroyed. The cost of bomb damage was estimated at £20 million (1952, £565,255,835 as a consumer price equivalent), with 3,000,000 square feet (280,000 m2) of factory space, several oil and flour mills, the Riverside Quay and 27 churches, 14 schools or hospitals, 42 pubs and 8 cinemas ruined; only 6,000 out of 91,000 houses were undamaged at the end of the war
And that is just one city
Do you wonder the money was spent the way it was?

Any other Urban myths you want shot down?

 

[Zlatan]

I suggest you sign up for a basic course in history and come back later when you know what you are talking about.
For instance
"
Conserving the Beetles! How British soldiers helped save iconic VW car by rescuing blueprints from bomb-hit German factory in 1945

• Russian and American armies first came across VW factory but ignored blueprints
• British Army restarted production and placed order of 20,000 Type 1 Beetles
• In 1949, Volkswagenwerk was formed and factory was handed back to the Germans

Historical evidence shows how plucky British army officers rescued Hitler’s original ‘People’s Car’ and transformed it into the legendary Volkswagen Beetle
The blueprint Beetle plans and associated papers reveal how the British team who re-started production at the factory in 1945 led directory to the re-birth of what is now Europe’s biggest car company and to the revival of the booming German car industry.

The blueprints carry on them the name of one of the key figures - Colonel Charles Radclyffe
The documents were discovered originally by the British army officers in 1945 in the ruins of the Volkswagen factory in North Germany that had switched from pre-war car production to wartime military vehicles and even parts for the infamous V1 rockets or ‘Doodlebugs’ which rained down on Southern England.

The British officers and their team brought back to life what Hitler called his ‘Kraft durch Freude’ (KdF’) – or ‘Strength Through Joy’ – car in a town which carried the same name.

But they gave it back its original name – Volkswagen or ‘People’s Car ‘– and renamed the town Wolfsburg after the local castle.

And the post war labour Government of Clement Attlee rebuilt the country from the ruins which was by far the biggest problem we faced

For instance Hull was the most severely damaged British city or town during the Second World War, with 95 percent of houses damaged
Of a population of approximately 320,000 at the beginning of the war, approximately 152,000 were made homeless as a result of bomb destruction or damage
More than 5,000 houses were destroyed and half of the city centre destroyed. The cost of bomb damage was estimated at £20 million (1952, £565,255,835 as a consumer price equivalent), with 3,000,000 square feet (280,000 m2) of factory space, several oil and flour mills, the Riverside Quay and 27 churches, 14 schools or hospitals, 42 pubs and 8 cinemas ruined; only 6,000 out of 91,000 houses were undamaged at the end of the war
And that is just one city
Do you wonder the money was spent the way it was?

Any other Urban myths you want shot down?

Oh, so we can achieve things when our backs are to the wall and without EU. Good post OG.

 

[oyster]

I suggest you sign up for a basic course in history and come back later when you know what you are talking about.
For instance
"
Conserving the Beetles! How British soldiers helped save iconic VW car by rescuing blueprints from bomb-hit German factory in 1945

• Russian and American armies first came across VW factory but ignored blueprints
• British Army restarted production and placed order of 20,000 Type 1 Beetles
• In 1949, Volkswagenwerk was formed and factory was handed back to the Germans

Historical evidence shows how plucky British army officers rescued Hitler’s original ‘People’s Car’ and transformed it into the legendary Volkswagen Beetle
The blueprint Beetle plans and associated papers reveal how the British team who re-started production at the factory in 1945 led directory to the re-birth of what is now Europe’s biggest car company and to the revival of the booming German car industry.

The blueprints carry on them the name of one of the key figures - Colonel Charles Radclyffe
The documents were discovered originally by the British army officers in 1945 in the ruins of the Volkswagen factory in North Germany that had switched from pre-war car production to wartime military vehicles and even parts for the infamous V1 rockets or ‘Doodlebugs’ which rained down on Southern England.

The British officers and their team brought back to life what Hitler called his ‘Kraft durch Freude’ (KdF’) – or ‘Strength Through Joy’ – car in a town which carried the same name.

But they gave it back its original name – Volkswagen or ‘People’s Car ‘– and renamed the town Wolfsburg after the local castle.

And the post war labour Government of Clement Attlee rebuilt the country from the ruins which was by far the biggest problem we faced

For instance Hull was the most severely damaged British city or town during the Second World War, with 95 percent of houses damaged
Of a population of approximately 320,000 at the beginning of the war, approximately 152,000 were made homeless as a result of bomb destruction or damage
More than 5,000 houses were destroyed and half of the city centre destroyed. The cost of bomb damage was estimated at £20 million (1952, £565,255,835 as a consumer price equivalent), with 3,000,000 square feet (280,000 m2) of factory space, several oil and flour mills, the Riverside Quay and 27 churches, 14 schools or hospitals, 42 pubs and 8 cinemas ruined; only 6,000 out of 91,000 houses were undamaged at the end of the war
And that is just one city
Do you wonder the money was spent the way it was?

Any other Urban myths you want shot down?

Not only are you right about the British soldiers and VW, but my own mother was peripherally involved. She spent a few years immediately after the war travelling round Germany with her boss and visited the remnant VW factory at Wolfsburg. Never did quite get what her role was... The important bit was that she met my father and married.

 

[oldgroaner]

Oh, so we can achieve things when our backs are to the wall and without EU. Good post OG.

Are you losing it altogether? do you really think that bit of amateur spin covers up the fact that you were WRONG on both points you made?

How does any of that reflect on the advantages of being in the EU?
What it actually illustrated, and I know you prefer not to notice was that the British Army showed Solidarity with the fate of the German people and tried to help them get back on their feet!
The EU actually existed as an idea in not just Churchill's mind, but in a lot of other peoples too as a means of preventing wars like that ever again.

Both of your points were comprehensively destroyed, yet here you are trying to squirm and wriggle out of accepting you were proved wrong.
We have our backs to the wall again, because people like you put a cross in the wrong box.
Wriggle out of that if you can.

 

[oldgroaner]

good to see our hard-earned annual EU contributions ending up in the italian Mafias pockets - how nice to see our money going to such a noble cause,
par for the course from the Brussels gangsters!

Sicilian mafia made £2.6bn from swindling EU funds intended for national park

The mafia has earned €3 billion (£2.6 billion) over the last decade siphoning off EU funds intended for a national park in Sicily, according to a former director of the protected area who survived an assassination attempt by the mob.
In 10 years they were able to fraudulently pocket €3 billion, said Mr Antoci, who battled for years to put a stop to the fraud and still has to live under police protection.

He gave an example of a tract of land, covering 1,000 hectares (2,470 acres), which the mafia rented for €36,400 a year.
“They managed to make €1 million or more on those 1,000 hectares,” Mr Antoci explained in his book, The Mafia of the pastures – Europe’s big fraud.
“For years, mafia families terrorised honest landowners and rented land within the park for a few thousand euros, pocketing each year hundreds of thousands of euros from the EU,” he said.
The mafia are nothing if not creative. In one case, they received €200,000 in EU funds to build a bed and breakfast but used the money to construct a villa for a mob family.

It is not just in Sicily that the mafia has supplemented its traditional activities of racketeering, loan-sharking, drug dealing and prostitution with involvement in the farming sector.

It has infiltrated agriculture across the country and has interests right along the food chain, from producers to wholesale markets and restaurants, anti-mafia prosecutors say.
The value of the “agro-mafia business” was estimated at more than €22 billion last year.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/01/cosa-nostra-mafia-made-3bn-swindling-eu-funds-intended-national/

To put things in perspective this is the sort of creature the Conservatives have as Mps, this particular one is the Conservative MP for Witham and still will be after we leave the EU

And that is just one of the many leaving the EU will not remove from parasiting on the public.
Remind me what we gain by leaving the EU to be entirely at the mercy of thesecon artists?
And remember this sort of situation isn't limited to one party.
Worse there are an unknown number of others among the 650 in the club.
So don't worry too much about the EU when we have these beauties eating away at the taxes we pay, and unfortunately we will be taking them with us on Brexit day

 

[OxygenJames]

Terrific Humour from Boris in the Express
Boris Johnson FURY at claims he threw away vital Brexit documents in a public bin
BORIS Johnson has rubbished claims he chucked away 70 pages of Parliamentary Brexit documents in the bin of a petrol station.

But defiant Mr Johnson said: “Just as the British public are complaining that newspapers are full of rubbish, the Sunday Mirror has gone out and proved it by publishing the contents of a petrol station bin.”

In the handwritten notes, Mr Johnson allegedly detailed a claim chief whip Julian Smith is plotting a second referendum after failing to pass Theresa May’s deal through parliament.

He also suggested there is “no strategy” for leaving the EU without a deal on March 29.

What sort of a defence is that ? Confirmation of stupidity being spun into criticism?
Truly the man is mad as a box of Frogs

What do you say now OJ?

Boris is a bit of a dick. Tell me something new.

 

[oldgroaner]

Boris is a bit of a dick. Tell me something new.

I agree completely my question was about your reaction to this bit at the end

"He also suggested there is “no strategy” for leaving the EU without a deal on March 29. "

 

[oldgroaner]

Prefkcu8ng-cicesly.

Don't confuse OG with facts though. He's not had his evening sherry yet and is probably still leafing through his copy of the Daily Mirror for information that lends weight to his complaints about Brexit and life in general.

I haven't drunk alcohol since the night of the Millenia, and have never bought the Daily Mirror, but then as usual you jump to the wrong conclusions

 

[oldgroaner]

OK. Fair point. Right now we only produce around 60% of our own food - so we'd already be in trouble if the worst came to the worst. But that is a fair point you make for sure.

52% actually but then you were never good at actual facts

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Express
Lord Nigel has a cunning plan!
BREXIT BREAKTHROUGH: Farage reveals VERY SIMPLE way to avoid chaos for BOTH EU and UK
A GROUNDBREAKING plan to avoid financial chaos if the UK leaves the European Union without a deal has been revealed by Nigel Farage in Brussels.

And what is it? a Transition period!

 

[oyster]

are Americans dying from eating chlorinated chicken. Is it also a fact that a lot of the bagged salads that we buy washed in a chlorine solution

a) It is NOT that the chicken is exposed to chlorine disinfectant, it is that the whole production line is based on the assumption the final chlorination process will completely wipe out all the problems that were not addressed earlier on that line.

b) There are many reasons to question bagged salads and their safety. Further, I think the industry has been moving away from chlorine-based products to other options such as peracetic acid and products based on extracts of citrus fruits.

 

[Woosh]

Does anyone know what impact a no-deal exit would have on mainland electricity interconnects to Europe?

GB imports electricity from France and the NL, that won't change anytime soon.
A no deal brexit would probably keep the import duty at zero rate bur there may be higher 'grid access' charge.
Access rules and specifications may remain under ECJ to use the interconnectors.

 

[oldgroaner]

In "The Times"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-times-view-on-the-poverty-of-leadership-exposed-by-brexit-the-state-of-politics-37vldzqpg?shareToken=6ef42962380b93c9d2a71f062de2f800
LEADING ARTICLE
February 4 2019, 12:01am, The Times
The Times’ view on the poverty of leadership exposed by Brexit: The State of Politics


The process of leaving the EU has exposed the leadership of both the main parties as not up to the job. British politics needs a thorough overhaul either of personnel or structure

Agreed

 

[oldgroaner]

The Great Tragedy of Brexit: getting the opposite of what you voted for

But hey! they knew what they were voting for, not that it would turn out to be the opposite.

 

[oyster]

GB imports electricity from France and the NL

And Belgium:

https://www.eenewspower.com/news/400kv-hvdc-interconnect-uk-belgium-opens