Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Not quite how Bloomberg saw it last week flecc.
View attachment 28136

Laughable, I posted total loss, that's 100%, not 57%.

Germany knows better than Bloomberg and as posted, has said so and proved it. What is is about the fact of prove that you don't understand?
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

She is a disaster. But what other choice did those MPs have? Personally I would have voted against her but I'm really not clear what good it would have done.

Is all this her fault? Yes,she has made some mistakes but the real fault lies with the ERG-that bunch of nutters lead by Rees-Mogg seem determined to Brexit whatever the damage caused,they even are prepared to see the demise of their own party just to Brexit.
She should teach the lot of them a lesson and put a vote into parliament cancelling Art 50,without a referendum,hehe!!!
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

Flecc
On the industry point, we hardly have a manufacturing base, its gone. What we have is no longer ours. "Our" car industry is 95%foreign owned with dividends, profits supporting owners origin. (USA, Germany, Japan, India)
We don't have a car industry to lose. Our car industry is a sham... whereas the German economy depends on theirs. They have more to lose.
Are you saying Bloomberg is wrong??? They have no vested interest either way. I think is worse than laughable how we have destroyed our own negotiating position and built EU's way above reality. Yes a no deal would be bad for UK, it would be bad for EU aswell. That's all anyone is saying. Can't see what is amusing in that.

 

[OxygenJames]

It all revolves around what is offered on ref2 and its wording to actually settle anything.
Imagine how divided country would become if let's say 3 outcomes were offered, 2 of which split leave (or remain) and remain won with under 40%...(or vice versa)
Then assume we have a binary ref and the most desired outcome was not even offered. It really isn't as simple as many assume, if that is we want to be in a better place after it.
Like I, ve said before I, d go for the 2nd ref to have May, s deal or Remain... (if we must be consulted again) but that means no deal isn't even an option. (there is support for no deal. Farage has come out of hiding and was on Vine today arguing for a no deal)
There is also a strong argument on democratic grounds for not having another ref...
And, there is an assumption on many parts another vote would show a remain win, which if so would settle things... But it sure as hell is not guaranteed. Imagine a ref2 which said leave and May, s deal doesn't get through... That means we crash out...

I still think in a weeks time MP's will have to pass May's deal. There are more opportunities for unknown and further complications with another ref..But that probably means ref2 is inevitable in current climate.
And to be fair EU has history for offering referendums until the desired result is achieved... Is that really what people want..

That's not what I want.

We already had a vote. Regardless of opinions to the contrary we knew what we were voting for - to leave the EU - meaning leave the single market and customs union - out of the jurisdiction of the ECJ - and take back control of our borders.

Everybody made that very very clear. On both sides. So. Back to WTO terms. Plain and simple. Out means out. You don't leave your GF and then go back for sex. That's what May's deal is trying to do.

Make a clean break. It's what we voted for.

 

[Kudoscycles]

It all revolves around what is offered on ref2 and its wording to actually settle anything.
Imagine how divided country would become if let's say 3 outcomes were offered, 2 of which split leave (or remain) and remain won with under 40%...(or vice versa)
Then assume we have a binary ref and the most desired outcome was not even offered. It really isn't as simple as many assume, if that is we want to be in a better place after it.
Like I, ve said before I, d go for the 2nd ref to have May, s deal or Remain... (if we must be consulted again) but that means no deal isn't even an option. (there is support for no deal. Farage has come out of hiding and was on Vine today arguing for a no deal)
There is also a strong argument on democratic grounds for not having another ref...
And, there is an assumption on many parts another vote would show a remain win, which if so would settle things... But it sure as hell is not guaranteed. Imagine a ref2 which said leave and May, s deal doesn't get through... That means we crash out...

I still think in a weeks time MP's will have to pass May's deal. There are more opportunities for unknown and further complications with another ref..But that probably means ref2 is inevitable in current climate.
And to be fair EU has history for offering referendums until the desired result is achieved... Is that really what people want..

Has to be the same as the first one....Leave or Remain...Leave by whatever route our parliament decides,Remain is simple....we Remain.
Whats wrong with that????
KudosDave

 

[Danidl]

It all revolves around what is offered on ref2 and its wording to actually settle anything.
Imagine how divided country would become if let's say 3 outcomes were offered, 2 of which split leave (or remain) and remain won with under 40%...(or vice versa)
Then assume we have a binary ref and the most desired outcome was not even offered. It really isn't as simple as many assume, if that is we want to be in a better place after it.
Like I, ve said before I, d go for the 2nd ref to have May, s deal or Remain... (if we must be consulted again) but that means no deal isn't even an option. (there is support for no deal. Farage has come out of hiding and was on Vine today arguing for a no deal)
There is also a strong argument on democratic grounds for not having another ref...
And, there is an assumption on many parts another vote would show a remain win, which if so would settle things... But it sure as hell is not guaranteed. Imagine a ref2 which said leave and May, s deal doesn't get through... That means we crash out...

I still think in a weeks time MP's will have to pass May's deal. There are more opportunities for unknown and further complications with another ref..But that probably means ref2 is inevitable in current climate.
And to be fair EU has history for offering referendums until the desired result is achieved... Is that really what people want..

Are you really that dense?. The EU has ,to the best of my knowledge, never offered a referendum. A referendum is a vote taken by a population in a nation state...of which there are 28 at present, in order to accept or reject a major proposal presented by the EU. Most countries do not have the type of safeguards for its citizens that Ireland has, and therefore we have had more EU based referenda. If you refer to the two referenda which were presented twice, Lisbon and Nice, there were substantial changes and clarifications presented in the second presentation in both cases.
I have no problem with you or anyone else mistaking prior events, but when they have been flagged up recently, it does beg the question in my first sentence.

 

[Kudoscycles]

That's not what I want.

We already had a vote. Regardless of opinions to the contrary we knew what we were voting for - to leave the EU - meaning leave the single market and customs union - out of the jurisdiction of the ECJ - and take back control of our borders.

Everybody made that very very clear. On both sides. So. Back to WTO terms. Plain and simple. Out means out. You don't leave your GF and then go back for sex. That's what May's deal is trying to do.

Make a clean break. It's what we voted for.

Ok we have a referendum about going to war...in the meantime we settle our differences and peace is declared....too late mate we voted to go to war and war it must be...Farage pulls the first trigger.

 

[Zlatan]

Is all this her fault? Yes,she has made some mistakes but the real fault lies with the ERG-that bunch of nutters lead by Rees-Mogg seem determined to Brexit whatever the damage caused,they even are prepared to see the demise of their own party just to Brexit.
She should teach the lot of them a lesson and put a vote into parliament cancelling Art 50,without a referendum,hehe!!!
KudosDave

Even as a leaver I totally agree with that. Its what a Government should do. Govern.

 

[oldgroaner]

Click bait from a bigoted Troll. There is no point in you and I even attempting to communicate. I won't answer your posts and I, d be obliged if you reciprocated the blessing.

Remarkable!
I ask you to post on topic and this is your response
Zlatan if you don't want responses then don't post, unless it is on topic.
And far from being bigotted I have shows patience for your nonsense such as
"Click bait from a bigoted Troll. " that has been far more than you deserve.
I try to contribute to this thread, but how do you behave?
You come on to act as self appointed "Thought Police" and it's a rare day indeed when you actually post on topic.
Do yourself and everyone else a favour, post on topic or don't bother posting.
If you Troll the thread , expect to be told you are doing so.

 

[Danidl]

Flecc
On the industry point, we hardly have a manufacturing base, its gone. What we have is no longer ours. "Our" car industry is 95%foreign owned with dividends, profits supporting owners origin. (USA, Germany, Japan, India)
We don't have a car industry to lose. Our car industry is a sham... whereas the German economy depends on theirs. They have more to lose.
Are you saying Bloomberg is wrong??? They have no vested interest either way. I think is worse than laughable how we have destroyed our own negotiating position and built EU's way above reality. Yes a no deal would be bad for UK, it would be bad for EU aswell. That's all anyone is saying. Can't see what is amusing in that.

Flecc may be better placed to answer, but my understanding is that the UK still has a substantial car industry, but rather than making the branded names ,they are involved in subassembly and piece parts as part of pan European production.. Braking systems , engine management systems , fuel injection ,fuel pumps ,car electrics etc.

 

[Zlatan]

Are you really that dense?. The EU has ,to the best of my knowledge, never offered a referendum. A referendum is a vote taken by a population in a nation state...of which there are 28 at present, in order to accept or reject a major proposal presented by the EU. Most countries do not have the type of safeguards for its citizens that Ireland has, and therefore we have had more EU based referenda. If you refer to the two referenda which were presented twice, Lisbon and Nice, there were substantial changes and clarifications presented in the second presentation in both cases.
I have no problem with you or anyone else mistaking prior events, but when they have been flagged up recently, it does beg the question in my first sentence.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2015/10/19/asking-the-public-twice-why-do-voters-change-their-minds-in-second-referendums-on-eu-treaties/#Author
No, I, m not thick.. Thanks.
Read the article.

 

[Zlatan]

Remarkable!
I ask you to post on topic and this is your response
Zlatan if you don't want responses then don't post, unless it is on topic.
And far from being bigotted I have shows patience for your nonsense such as
"Click bait from a bigoted Troll. " that has been far more than you deserve.
I try to contribute to this thread, but how do you behave?
You come on to act as self appointed "Thought Police" and it's a rare day indeed when you actually post on topic.
Do yourself and everyone else a favour, post on topic or don't bother posting.
If you Troll the thread , expect to be told you are doing so.

You insist on answering even when asked not to. You are off topic and trolling.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I suspect the remainers have been misled around support for leave dwindling. Leavers have had no cause to demonstrate or be vocal. The remainers on the other hand have felt aggrieved so are bound to be more vocal. It's even been evident on here, as Leave appears to become less likely more become interested in expressing their views.
When leavers realise or believe we won't be leaving we will see more joining in on here and generally more conspicuous...

That is totally untrue...look at the support on Question Time when the green party MP said we should have another vote....the support for Leavers was poor.
The press and media are more and more mentioning a second vote as becoming more likely.
There were a few Leavers on Westminster Bridge with yellow vests ,real Dads Army types but they were dwarfed by the Remain marches.
Remain is rapidly becoming the majority,you just have to accept the inevitable.

 

[oldgroaner]

Visa for India was 100 us dollars, some agency sites tried to charge £280...£7 will hardly be worth collecting... Will cost that to get it... Not worth worrying about... Way things are going in South France a coffee will cost that soon.

Off topic

 

[oldgroaner]

You insist on answering even when asked not to. You are off topic and trolling.

Post on topic you have no authority to avoid criticism when Trolling

 

[Zlatan]

Post on topic you have no authority to avoid criticism when Trolling

As all yours are.

 

[oldgroaner]

Click bait from a bigoted Troll. There is no point in you and I even attempting to communicate. I won't answer your posts and I, d be obliged if you reciprocated the blessing.

Post on topic you have no authority to avoid criticism when Trolling

 

[oldgroaner]

Normally I am prepared to suffer fools gladly however Zlatan is wasting time so I'm using the ignore button

 

[Fingers]

Normally I am prepared to suffer fools gladly however Zlatan is wasting time so I'm using the ignore button

Please also ignore me.

Thank you.

 

[flecc]

Flecc
On the industry point, we hardly have a manufacturing base, its gone. What we have is no longer ours. "Our" car industry is 95%foreign owned with dividends, profits supporting owners origin. (USA, Germany, Japan, India)
We don't have a car industry to lose. Our car industry is a sham... whereas the German economy depends on theirs. They have more to lose.
Are you saying Bloomberg is wrong??? They have no vested interest either way. I think is worse than laughable how we have destroyed our own negotiating position and built EU's way above reality. Yes a no deal would be bad for UK, it would be bad for EU aswell. That's all anyone is saying. Can't see what is amusing in that.

This is a blinkered response Zlatan, it's not about cars.

Fact: Germany's trade with the UK is 7% of all their exports.

Fact: Germany lost a little over 7% of their total exports in the 2008 recession.

Fact: With the strength of their economy they shrugged that off, continuing to bail out others and also taking in well over a million refugees, all easily afforded.

So the loss of all their exports to us wouldn't trouble them greatly. Nor would that loss trouble any other EU country greatly, since they do less with us.

Of course the EU wouldn't like it, but the EU has no trade with us. Only their member countries do.
.