Brexit, for once some facts.

[Kudoscycles]

Frankly, I think that this is a nonsense argument.
What you seem to want is that the People be accountable to you and those who think like you.
Parliamentary democracy in this country suffers from the fact that ballots do not have a 'None of the above' box. In soviet style, we are offered a list of people to whom we must give all power, they are not our delegates.
A referendum is pure democracy, accountable to the People.

I wish I could be sick of Brexit but my situation is of a business which is right in the firing line of the implications,I buy in dollars and sell to every EU country,so it is important to me.
If I was one of the unemployable of Hartlepool I would have got bored with it all by now,the Poles still seem to be working here!
It was stupid putting such a complex subject to the people,I don't think any of us understood the effects of the vote and even now we are grappling with the implications,some new problem seems to come out on a daily basis.
For many it was a protest vote nothing to do with Brexit,they believed that if we left the EU Boris promised them that the NHS would be super funded out of the EU £8billion,nobody mentioned that we now have to give the farmers and research guys £6billion out of this saved £8billion. They also believed that EU workers would be sent home and new jobs created that would be highly paid but that they didn't have to work at!
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Frankly, I think that this is a nonsense argument.
What you seem to want is that the People be accountable to you and those who think like you.
Parliamentary democracy in this country suffers from the fact that ballots do not have a 'None of the above' box. In soviet style, we are offered a list of people to whom we must give all power, they are not our delegates.
A referendum is pure democracy, accountable to the People.

But unfortunately a completely ineffective method of government. Look at all the other EU referendums,none of them ultimately actioned the people's vote.
Why should this one be any different.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

There has already been plenty of treason on this forum.

Really? By whom and against what?
The fact is that you voted for something the person offering it had no legal authority to do so.
And the referendum itself is not legally binding.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. King George found out who is sovereign when the Americans rebelled, so did his descendant when the Irish rebelled.
You can live in hope, I think that your reading of UK politics as they are now is fragile. The government of 2020 could well be shaped by just how far down the Article 50 road we are.
Hopefully at the end.

Both achieved by armed rebellion, and that is treason and you know that.
Surely you are not suggesting that?
Personally I would like to see article 50 invoked out of curiosity, as we are already paying because of the vote and may as well see how good or bad the decision really was.
Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[homemoz]

Frankly, I think that this is a nonsense argument.
What you seem to want is that the People be accountable to you and those who think like you.
Parliamentary democracy in this country suffers from the fact that ballots do not have a 'None of the above' box. In soviet style, we are offered a list of people to whom we must give all power, they are not our delegates.
A referendum is pure democracy, accountable to the People.

Mike, i would have made the same argument even if remain had won. I feel that we were asked to vote for the equivalent of vapour ware. Having no plan in either direction, just allowed for the projection of hopes, dreams, fantasies & predujices onto the alreadty distorted slate of the referendum. More importantly, nothing has been solved & it looks as though the real concerns of people won't be addressed on either side. If we learn anything from this debacle, I hope it is that complex problems require reasoned and rational solutions & not based on emotion or fear. Oddly enough I am a person too & that you have dealt with my argument by depersonalising me to an elite of some sort.

 

[oldgroaner]

"A referendum is pure democracy, accountable to the People."
How can it be if it has overcome the power of law and cannot be contested?
That is more simply described by the words "Mob Rule"
Democracy requires that there are effective means of correcting mistakes when they occur.
Somewhat difficult to reverse a decision made by referendum if the decision turns out to be hitting the "Self Destruct" button.
Particularly so when so many lies influenced the decision.

 

[homemoz]

The whole situation was complicated by the closeness of the result which was not in any shape or form statistically significant. Basically, if you ask a flawed question, you get a flawed answer.
Pressed reply by mistake, so best continue. What I was going to say is that all this referendum has shown is that we live in a deeply divided and disillusioned society. Some of which may be EU related but there is lot that isn't. How someone goes about resolving these sort of divisions,

"A referendum is pure democracy, accountable to the People."
How can it be if it has overcome the power of law and cannot be contested?
That is more simply described by the words "Mob Rule"
Democracy requires that there are effective means of correcting mistakes when they occur.
Somewhat difficult to reverse a decision made by referendum if the decision turns out to be hitting the "Self Destruct" button.
Particularly so when so many lies influenced the decision.

I tend to agree with Old Groaner on this. The referral was deeply flawed in all respects & yielded a result which only showed a deeply divided and disillusioned electorate & this is where we are currently at. Maybe that's what needed to come out of all this rather than be hidden away - provided the divisions are acknowledged rather than catagorised into winners & losers. Anyway, not much more I want to say on this topic. As I said before, I have joined a political party - Lib Dems. So at least it's got me more active in politics than just casting my vote.Time will tell whether it will make difference. It's the quality of the arguments both for & against which I've found depressing & the use of language to manipulate & play on fears. Wilhelm Reich wrote an interesting book which I read many years ago - The Mass Psychology of Fascism. Bit of a rant but I could see where he was coming from. Anyway, that's it from me on this thread....

 

[oldgroaner]

I tend to agree with Old Groaner on this. The referral was deeply flawed in all respects & yielded a result which only showed a deeply divided and disillusioned electorate & this is where we are currently at. Maybe that's what needed to come out of all this rather than be hidden away - provided the divisions are acknowledged rather than catagorised into winners & losers. Anyway, not much more I want to say on this topic. As I said before, I have joined a political party - Lib Dems. So at least it's got me more active in politics than just casting my vote.Time will tell whether it will make difference. It's the quality of the arguments both for & against which I've found depressing & the use of language to manipulate & play on fears. Wilhelm Reich wrote an interesting book which I read many years ago - The Mass Psychology of Fascism. Bit of a rant but I could see where he was coming from. Anyway, that's it from me on this thread....

Well said, and good for you, choosing a political party to support.

 

[anotherkiwi]

So, the rotting, dead hand of the elites still grasps to power despite the will of the people?

Mike don't tell us you have been living in a parallel universe these last few years? They will do anything to preserve power / money including crime.

I suppose that Europe will be quite glad to be shot of us. We never did see eye to eye with them, always wanting exemptions etc.
We made bad Europeans.

Correct on both counts. Those of you who have the means and who do see eye to eye already have property here, some a vacation home and others live here permanently. There are Europeans among you, but they are here.

 

[oldgroaner]

Daily Excess this morning
"
Bitter German car manufacturer blames Brexit vote for causing production cuts
A GERMAN car manufacturer has blamed the historic Brexit vote for putting the brakes on production and cutting thousands of staff.
The Opel Group, which owns Vauxhall, is slashing staff hours in its factories based in Eisenach and Russelsheim, Germany, as it comes to terms with the EU referendum result.
Brexit was greeted by a fall in the pound, which means any vehicles imported into Britain are now more expensive, giving UK exporters a boost.
In the run up to the EU Referendum, Opel warned that Brexit would cost the company £305million due to currency moves and weaker demand if there was an economic downturn.
Then there is a sea change in the reporting!

But strong retail sales figures suggest no such economic hardship, with 2.7 million new cars expected to be bought in Britain this year, 70,000 more than in 2015.
Car dealers are also reporting no sharp downturn in sales."

There is a far more intelligent repot in the FT
https://www.ft.com/content/f736c2e2-660b-11e6-a08a-c7ac04ef00aa
Which reveals that this is an Anticipatory reaction from Opel on the basis
"Several car manufacturers have warned dealers to expect no growth in new car sales for the rest of 2016, according to Lookers, one of the UK’s largest car dealer groups, with 150 dealers in its network."

Interestingly many of Opel groups cars are under the Vauxhall badge, assembled here and using some German parts, which should in theory suffer less from the value of the falling pound.
Opel appear to have taken this action more on the basis of anticipated lower car sales levels that changes to the pound, surely?
And we can expect the same cut backs in the Vauxhall factories here, logically.

 

[oldtom]

Interestingly many of Opel groups cars are under the Vauxhall badge, assembled here and using some German parts, which should in theory suffer less from the value of the falling pound.
Opel appear to have taken this action more on the basis of anticipated lower car sales levels that changes to the pound, surely?
And we can expect the same cut backs in the Vauxhall factories here, logically.

While economics is a mystery to me - and every Chancellor of the Exchequer in living memory in my experience - if I were a German motor industry mogul facing a downturn which might necessitate cutbacks and staff layoffs, I'd prefer to avoid the wrath of the German people so any cuts would be to foreign outposts before laying off German workers, certainly in the first instance.

Let's hope it doesn't happen as there could be a very painful domino effect thereafter across the euphemistically-known 'British' volume car industry.

Tom

 

[RobF]

Daily Excess this morning
"
Bitter German car manufacturer blames Brexit vote for causing production cuts
A GERMAN car manufacturer has blamed the historic Brexit vote for putting the brakes on production and cutting thousands of staff.
The Opel Group, which owns Vauxhall, is slashing staff hours in its factories based in Eisenach and Russelsheim, Germany, as it comes to terms with the EU referendum result.
Brexit was greeted by a fall in the pound, which means any vehicles imported into Britain are now more expensive, giving UK exporters a boost.
In the run up to the EU Referendum, Opel warned that Brexit would cost the company £305million due to currency moves and weaker demand if there was an economic downturn.
Then there is a sea change in the reporting!

But strong retail sales figures suggest no such economic hardship, with 2.7 million new cars expected to be bought in Britain this year, 70,000 more than in 2015.
Car dealers are also reporting no sharp downturn in sales."

There is no sea change in reporting, the report is balanced by what appears to be a still bullish new car market.

Opel - like you - seem determined to self-fulfil their prophecy of Brexit doom.

The German car companies are also famous for firing production workers when they are no longer needed - usually immigrants about whom no one in the Fatherland gives a stuff.

Seems obvious to me Opel wanted to rid itself of some employees and is using Brexit as a convenient excuse.

 

[oldgroaner]

While economics is a mystery to me - and every Chancellor of the Exchequer in living memory in my experience - if I were a German motor industry mogul facing a downturn which might necessitate cutbacks and staff layoffs, I'd prefer to avoid the wrath of the German people so any cuts would be to foreign outposts before laying off German workers, certainly in the first instance.

Let's hope it doesn't happen as there could be a very painful domino effect thereafter across the euphemistically-known 'British' volume car industry.

Tom

And perhaps the rest of the German Manufacturers operating here for the same reasons
A case of "When the EU coughs, the UK sneezes"
Style of thing?

 

[oldgroaner]

There is no sea change in reporting, the report is balanced by what appears to be a still bullish new car market.

Opel - like you - seem determined to self-fulfil their prophecy of Brexit doom.

The German car companies are also famous for firing production workers when they are no longer needed - usually immigrants about whom no one in the Fatherland gives a stuff.

Seems obvious to me Opel wanted to rid itself of some employees and is using Brexit as a convenient excuse.

Bullish Market? not according to Reuters
"
LONDON (Reuters) - British car registrations were flat in July but demand from private consumers fell for the fourth month in a row suggesting a hit to confidence, data for the first full month since Britons voted to leave the European Union showed on Thursday.

Sales rose 0.06 percent year-on-year to 178,523 units with a rise in business demand for fleet vehicles compensating for a 6 percent drop in demand from members of the public."

I hope this isn't a sign of things to come, but it doesn't look that way.
And it will impact smaller and non fleet sale car models.

 

[oldgroaner]

There is no sea change in reporting, the report is balanced by what appears to be a still bullish new car market.

Opel - like you - seem determined to self-fulfil their prophecy of Brexit doom.

The German car companies are also famous for firing production workers when they are no longer needed - usually immigrants about whom no one in the Fatherland gives a stuff.

Seems obvious to me Opel wanted to rid itself of some employees and is using Brexit as a convenient excuse.

Obvious to you perhaps but then, why would Opel use the logic of a Brexit fan to do business?
They are Pragmatists not Dreamers.
And I simply view the situation logically in the same pragmatic fashion, you should try it sometime

 

[tillson]

While economics is a mystery to me - and every Chancellor of the Exchequer in living memory in my experience - if I were a German motor industry mogul facing a downturn which might necessitate cutbacks and staff layoffs, I'd prefer to avoid the wrath of the German people so any cuts would be to foreign outposts before laying off German workers, certainly in the first instance.

Let's hope it doesn't happen as there could be a very painful domino effect thereafter across the euphemistically-known 'British' volume car industry.

Tom

Perhaps if you cross all of your fingers and toes and you wish for it to happen with enough vigour, maybe they will cut back in the UK and make British workers redundant. You will then be able to puff out your chest, look down you nose at the snivelling BREXITers and say, I told you so. Wouldn't that make you feel good.

 

[oldgroaner]

Perhaps if you cross all of your fingers and toes and you wish for it to happen with enough vigour, perhaps they will cut back in the UK and make British workers redundant. You will then be able to puff out your chest, look down you nose at the snivelling BREXITers and say, I told you so. Wouldn't that make you feel good.

No tillson, so don't demean yourself with remarks as silly as that.
The news isn't encouraging for any of us, and you try to take that nonsense attitude?
We desperately need the car market to hold up the economy and it helps none of us if it fails.
Problem is, what can be done about it?
Perhaps another "Scrappage" scheme to boost sales?

 

[RobF]

Obvious to you perhaps but then, why would Opel use the logic of a Brexit fan to do business?
They are Pragmatists not Dreamers.
And I simply view the situation logically in the same pragmatic fashion, you should try it sometime

Eh?

Opel is blaming Brexit so it can sack people.

It's that simple.

 

[tillson]

A few months ago, it cost a foreign company invested in the UK $15 - $16 to pay a British worker earning £10 per hour for for one hours labour. Today it costs about $13. Since staff costs make up a significant proportion of many business' operating overheads, this surely makes the UK a more attractive place to invest at the moment.

 

[tillson]

Problem is, what can be done about it?
Perhaps another "Scrappage" scheme to boost sales?

Not constantly talking down the UK and obsessively seeking out any negative, no matter how tenuous, would be a good start.

As for a scrappage scheme? I can think of a few candidates.

 

[oldgroaner]

A few months ago, it cost a foreign company invested in the UK $15 - $16 to pay a British worker earning £10 per hour for for one hours labour. Today it costs about $13. Since staff costs make up a significant proportion of many business' operating overheads, this surely makes the UK a more attractive place to invest at the moment.

Which British companies will benefit from this influx of cash? that wouldn't yield a bigger return if the money went to the Far East?