Indeed it is, and as you rightly point out, we are blighted with it permanently!
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Agreed, it's been going the other way with EU members gradually abandoning conscription, Sweden most recently I believe.
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So I pulled up me sleeves and went off to read some of the reasons people have been giving to leave the EU, my personal opinion:
- yes there are real problems
- most could be fixed easily
- leaving the EU will not fix the problems (oh a problem, let's run away...)
- other "problems" are not problems at all, just lack of understanding how the EU works and what its role is
- there is quite a bit of chest thumping nationalist waffle - I like national differences; languages, food, culture but "we are better than the rest of humanity" gets boring really quickly because it is not based on facts.
I read stuff in French and in English, the ideas are basically the same and strangely listed in the same or very similar order. That worried me a little - have people being copying a master list from somewhere?
- yes there are real problems
- most could be fixed easily
- leaving the EU will not fix the problems (oh a problem, let's run away...)
- other "problems" are not problems at all, just lack of understanding how the EU works and what its role is
- there is quite a bit of chest thumping nationalist waffle - I like national differences; languages, food, culture but "we are better than the rest of humanity" gets boring really quickly because it is not based on facts.
I read stuff in French and in English, the ideas are basically the same and strangely listed in the same or very similar order. That worried me a little - have people being copying a master list from somewhere?
The only thing I'd alter is that this brainwashing of the young with militarism isn't increasing, it's always been the same as a reference to 1794 shows below.
Back in the 1940s and '50s the boys grammar school I went to had one extra curricular activity, their army cadet unit that all were encouraged to join. Similar happens today in many schools and colleges.
The military has always had boy entrants from16 years old and regular Army entrants can commence signing up at 15 years and 7 months old. As a regular soldier and a senior NCO for several years, I can say that many of them in later service were little short of psychotic and dangerous. Among us "They're the the worst" was often applied to ex boy entrants extreme behaviour. I long ago concluded that the impressionable young should never be trained in violence since it's permanently damaging psychologically.
Local areas often have volunteer reserve army units and those reservists can be called up for active service. We've had one since 1794 here in Croydon, London and of course the young often find joining up for their military exercises using army vehicles exciting, something actively encouraged. Here's a link to that one which includes volunteers of the 4th battalion Parachute Regiment.
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True, but not my slip in origin. It was Wikipedia's in one of their pages and a copy and paste!
I should have checked though.
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I don't want to get into militarism sub thread, but i have always found the overt military presence at the British held Rugby internationals a little OTT. It smacks of the US parading of their flags at their ordinary football matches and the expected adulation
I could imagine the ire that my friend Tommie would have if the Irish Rugby team commenced each match with a public reciting of a few decades of the Rosary.... Though thinking of next Saturdays match, it might be an idea!.
Thought I help the leave means leave camp trying to drum up support for a Downing Street protest today
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oldgroaner @oldgroaner 13m13 minutes ago
Replying to @LeaveMnsLeave
What's the point when it can't be made to work with any of the politicians in the HOC? they are all useless
That should help .....
now is the time for all good men to come to the aid......
"
oldgroaner @oldgroaner 13m13 minutes ago
Replying to @LeaveMnsLeave
What's the point when it can't be made to work with any of the politicians in the HOC? they are all useless
That should help .....
now is the time for all good men to come to the aid......
of the quick brown fox jumping over the lazy dogs?Thought I help the leave means leave camp trying to drum up support for a Downing Street protest today
"
oldgroaner @oldgroaner 13m13 minutes ago
Replying to @LeaveMnsLeave
What's the point when it can't be made to work with any of the politicians in the HOC? they are all useless
That should help .....
now is the time for all good men to come to the aid......
This piece from the AAV website seems to me like a good summary of where we are this very day:
Another Angry Voice - Posts
After wasting away most of the Article 50 negotiation period Theresa May and the Tories have hastily cobbled together a draft Brexit agreement with the EU negotiators.
But things are not looking good for Theresa May's shambolic last-minute deal because the sectarian DUP bigots and the ERG Brextremists in the Tory party are already furiously briefing against it (despite not having read a word of it).
On the other hand there's going to be parliamentary opposition from the other side too, because Theresa May's deal will undoubtedly make the UK poorer, damage key industries, and cost huge numbers of jobs.
It's being reported that Theresa May is briefing her cabinet ministers on the draft agreement one by one, and the reason for this is obvious.
She's clearly going to try to try to persuade the hard-right Brextremist headbangers in her cabinet that if they vote against her shambles of a deal in parliament they'll massively increase the probability of Brexit being stopped (via another referendum).
On the other hand she's going to try to convince the Brexit-sceptic members of her cabinet that they need to vote in favour of her shambolic deal because the only alternative is the even more ruinous "no deal" flounce that she's been threatening ever since the beginning.
She can't sell these two contradictory stories at the same time, so that's why she's seeing her cabinet members one at a time.
It's highly likely that the DUP and the ERG Brextremist headbangers will oppose Theresa May's damaging Brexit deal despite her argument that they risk losing Brexit altogether if they dare to defy her, so she'll be reliant upon support from elsewhere to get her deal through parliament.
There's absolutely no way the SNP or Plaid Cymru will support it, and if the Lib-Dems switch from posturing as the anti-Brexit party to actually supporting this madness they'll undoubtedly destroy what remains of their party forever.
Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour front bench simply can't support it given that it will undoubtedly fail Keir Starmer's "six tests". It's inconceivable that they'd make the "six tests" such a core feature of their Brexit strategy as they opposed Tory Brextremism at virtually every turn for the last two years, then lob their "six tests" in the bin and support Tory Brexit at the last minute.
The only conceivable way Theresa May can force this shambles through parliament is if she somehow manages to convince the so-called Tory "mutineers" to support it (which actually seems quite likely given the number of times they've threatened Brexit rebellions in the past, before actively voting in favour of Theresa May's Brextremist legislation) and by convincing anti-Corbyn Labour right-wingers to back the deal too.
Presumably Theresa May will use the threat of a "no deal" catastrophe in an effort to con Labour right-wingers into supporting Tory Brexit, but another angle the Tories will certainly try is that a parliamentary win for Theresa May's Tory Brexit would be a huge defeat for Corbyn, which would offer the Labour right-wingers another opportunity to try to oust him as leader and parachute a right-wing pro-privatisation, pro-austerity neoliberal into the Labour Party leadership.
Are the Labour right-wingers are venal enough to immediately drop all of their anti-Brexit posturing to support Theresa May's Brexit plans, simply because they see it as a chance to undermine Corbyn?
Are they really cynical enough to vote in favour of Tory Brexit and then use the passage of Tory Brexit as an excuse to launch another anti-Corbyn coup attempt?
It's hard to say, but if it does go down that way (with the Labour right-wingers supporting Tory Brexit after two years of false accusations that Corbyn was supporting Tory Brexit) the mental gymnastics the anti-Corbyn mob would have to perform to justify such astounding opportunism would be absolutely extraordinary.
My hope is that the Tory 'mutineers' finally put the interests of the nation above Tory party political advantage for once, and make the rebellion they've been threatening over and again, and that the Labour right-wingers see sense and vote against Theresa May's shambolic Tory Brexit because protecting the UK economy and the British public from Theresa May's farcical last-minute Brexit shambles is infinitely more important than their blinkered fixation with continually plotting against Jeremy Corbyn.
If the so-called Tory "mutineers" and Labour right-wingers end up backing Tory Brexit while Corbyn while the Labour front bench and other opposition parties oppose it, then they'll annihilate their own support by proving themselves unbelievable hypocrites, and well and truly consign their brand of self-serving "centrism" to the dustbin of history.
If Theresa May's shambolic last-minute farce is voted down in parliament (which seems much more likely) there's little doubt that it would trigger a vote of no confidence, another General Election, and dramatically increase the probability of another EU referendum.
Tom
Another Angry Voice - Posts
After wasting away most of the Article 50 negotiation period Theresa May and the Tories have hastily cobbled together a draft Brexit agreement with the EU negotiators.
But things are not looking good for Theresa May's shambolic last-minute deal because the sectarian DUP bigots and the ERG Brextremists in the Tory party are already furiously briefing against it (despite not having read a word of it).
On the other hand there's going to be parliamentary opposition from the other side too, because Theresa May's deal will undoubtedly make the UK poorer, damage key industries, and cost huge numbers of jobs.
It's being reported that Theresa May is briefing her cabinet ministers on the draft agreement one by one, and the reason for this is obvious.
She's clearly going to try to try to persuade the hard-right Brextremist headbangers in her cabinet that if they vote against her shambles of a deal in parliament they'll massively increase the probability of Brexit being stopped (via another referendum).
On the other hand she's going to try to convince the Brexit-sceptic members of her cabinet that they need to vote in favour of her shambolic deal because the only alternative is the even more ruinous "no deal" flounce that she's been threatening ever since the beginning.
She can't sell these two contradictory stories at the same time, so that's why she's seeing her cabinet members one at a time.
It's highly likely that the DUP and the ERG Brextremist headbangers will oppose Theresa May's damaging Brexit deal despite her argument that they risk losing Brexit altogether if they dare to defy her, so she'll be reliant upon support from elsewhere to get her deal through parliament.
There's absolutely no way the SNP or Plaid Cymru will support it, and if the Lib-Dems switch from posturing as the anti-Brexit party to actually supporting this madness they'll undoubtedly destroy what remains of their party forever.
Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour front bench simply can't support it given that it will undoubtedly fail Keir Starmer's "six tests". It's inconceivable that they'd make the "six tests" such a core feature of their Brexit strategy as they opposed Tory Brextremism at virtually every turn for the last two years, then lob their "six tests" in the bin and support Tory Brexit at the last minute.
The only conceivable way Theresa May can force this shambles through parliament is if she somehow manages to convince the so-called Tory "mutineers" to support it (which actually seems quite likely given the number of times they've threatened Brexit rebellions in the past, before actively voting in favour of Theresa May's Brextremist legislation) and by convincing anti-Corbyn Labour right-wingers to back the deal too.
Presumably Theresa May will use the threat of a "no deal" catastrophe in an effort to con Labour right-wingers into supporting Tory Brexit, but another angle the Tories will certainly try is that a parliamentary win for Theresa May's Tory Brexit would be a huge defeat for Corbyn, which would offer the Labour right-wingers another opportunity to try to oust him as leader and parachute a right-wing pro-privatisation, pro-austerity neoliberal into the Labour Party leadership.
Are the Labour right-wingers are venal enough to immediately drop all of their anti-Brexit posturing to support Theresa May's Brexit plans, simply because they see it as a chance to undermine Corbyn?
Are they really cynical enough to vote in favour of Tory Brexit and then use the passage of Tory Brexit as an excuse to launch another anti-Corbyn coup attempt?
It's hard to say, but if it does go down that way (with the Labour right-wingers supporting Tory Brexit after two years of false accusations that Corbyn was supporting Tory Brexit) the mental gymnastics the anti-Corbyn mob would have to perform to justify such astounding opportunism would be absolutely extraordinary.
My hope is that the Tory 'mutineers' finally put the interests of the nation above Tory party political advantage for once, and make the rebellion they've been threatening over and again, and that the Labour right-wingers see sense and vote against Theresa May's shambolic Tory Brexit because protecting the UK economy and the British public from Theresa May's farcical last-minute Brexit shambles is infinitely more important than their blinkered fixation with continually plotting against Jeremy Corbyn.
If the so-called Tory "mutineers" and Labour right-wingers end up backing Tory Brexit while Corbyn while the Labour front bench and other opposition parties oppose it, then they'll annihilate their own support by proving themselves unbelievable hypocrites, and well and truly consign their brand of self-serving "centrism" to the dustbin of history.
If Theresa May's shambolic last-minute farce is voted down in parliament (which seems much more likely) there's little doubt that it would trigger a vote of no confidence, another General Election, and dramatically increase the probability of another EU referendum.
Tom
I suspect that more lies, threats, promises and bribes have been traded this afternoon in no 10 Downing Street , than at any other Cabinet meeting in it's entire history.
Meanwhile in Brussels the Ambassadors of the 27 are waiting with baited breath to see if our co called cabinet agree the proposals, and apparently they haven't even seen the 500 pages of the agreement yet.
Once they know the way the wind blows over here they can start their meeting.
Hopefully they will have brought sleeping bags and plenty of booze and nibbles.
Party hats, balloons, party poppers and whoopee cushions would be an advantage too.
What could possibles go wrong???
Meanwhile in the background of the Broadcast from the HOC shouts of "Stop Brexit!" can be clearly heard.
I wonder how many hundred thousand turned out for the pro Brexit demo outside number 10.?
Meanwhile in Brussels the Ambassadors of the 27 are waiting with baited breath to see if our co called cabinet agree the proposals, and apparently they haven't even seen the 500 pages of the agreement yet.
Once they know the way the wind blows over here they can start their meeting.
Hopefully they will have brought sleeping bags and plenty of booze and nibbles.
Party hats, balloons, party poppers and whoopee cushions would be an advantage too.
What could possibles go wrong???
Meanwhile in the background of the Broadcast from the HOC shouts of "Stop Brexit!" can be clearly heard.
I wonder how many hundred thousand turned out for the pro Brexit demo outside number 10.?
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To add to the general chaos both leaders of Scotland and Wales are brassed off at being ignored and not happy if there is any advantage being offered to give advantages to Northern Ireland over them....
At some point she will have to apply extreme prejudice to get these Donkeys to follow the carrot.
From the time this is going I'm sure we can conclude it's all going extremely smoothly in there, as they figure out where to put their crosses on the in house Referendum
Thus scotching one being provided for Public consumption.
Latest news.(5:45 PM) is there won't be communication from no 10 tonight and the EU meeting has gone home (or more likely to the nearest pub to throw a party!)
(6:00PM ) the Beeb have given up and gone down to the nearest pub as well.
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7:05 pm: STILL WAITING
My bet is the rats will fall in line and endorse the agreement
I feel sorry for.....Larry the Cat
As it must have been worse than Bonfire night!
My bet is the rats will fall in line and endorse the agreement
I feel sorry for.....Larry the Cat
As it must have been worse than Bonfire night!