Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

back to brexit, interesting read:

http://opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Which-way-to-the-Brexit-FINAL.pdf

EEA with restrictions (still within EU rules, so acceptable to the EU) is the overall best scenario. 57% would support that deal.

quote:

So the way Brexit has divided society has pushed the Conservatives further and further to one side of that divide. Among those who find any form of EEA membership unacceptable 53% would vote Conservative in a general election. Similarly, 41% of Conservative voters would find such an arrangement unacceptable. Although a narrow majority (53%) of Conservative voters would find this acceptable, those Conservative voters who aren’t more than reluctant Remainers. On a scale of 1-10, where 1 is very strongly supporting remaining in the EU and 10 is very strongly supporting leaving, 48% of Conservative voters put themselves at “10” vs. just 13% putting themselves at 1. The difference between a Brexit outcome that is acceptable to the Conservative party and one that is acceptable to the country more broadly is considerable. Trying to balance these tensions while not appearing to do so is why the least acceptable Brexit outcome appears to be the one we are most likely to get.

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/arron-banks-russia-brexit-meeting
"
Arron Banks ‘met with Russian officials multiple times before Brexit vote’
Documents seen by Observer suggest multiple meetings between 2015 and 2017

Worth reading....

 

[Woosh]

so he bought in some Russian goldmines.
Are you suggesting that Russia funded brexit campaign via Mr Banks by giving him a better than good deal?

 

[oldgroaner]

so he bought in some Russian goldmines.
Are you suggesting that Russia funded brexit campaign via Mr Banks by giving him a better than good deal?

Are you suggesting the opposite? I merely posted the link, you can reach your own conclusion

 

[oldgroaner]

back to brexit, interesting read:

http://opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Which-way-to-the-Brexit-FINAL.pdf

EEA with restrictions (still within EU rules, so acceptable to the EU) is the overall best scenario. 57% would support that deal.

quote:

So the way Brexit has divided society has pushed the Conservatives further and further to one side of that divide. Among those who find any form of EEA membership unacceptable 53% would vote Conservative in a general election. Similarly, 41% of Conservative voters would find such an arrangement unacceptable. Although a narrow majority (53%) of Conservative voters would find this acceptable, those Conservative voters who aren’t more than reluctant Remainers. On a scale of 1-10, where 1 is very strongly supporting remaining in the EU and 10 is very strongly supporting leaving, 48% of Conservative voters put themselves at “10” vs. just 13% putting themselves at 1. The difference between a Brexit outcome that is acceptable to the Conservative party and one that is acceptable to the country more broadly is considerable. Trying to balance these tensions while not appearing to do so is why the least acceptable Brexit outcome appears to be the one we are most likely to get.

And I thought the Byzantine Empire's politics were complicated! and that lot is only what's going on in a single party (with a smaller number of active members than the opposition at that)

 

[Woosh]

And I thought the Byzantine Empire's politics were complicated! and that lot is only what's going on in a single party (with a smaller number of active members than the opposition at that)

brexit split the tories and created Ukip.
without a doubt, brexit gave the tories millions of extra votes and put them in power.
however, in a few years, what goes around comes around, it could turn out to be a case of brexit giveth and brexit taketh away.

 

[oldgroaner]

brexit split the tories and created Ukip.
without a doubt, brexit gave the tories millions of extra votes and put them in power.
however, in a few years, what goes around comes around, it could turn out to be a case of brexit giveth and brexit taketh away.

In a biblical mood are we?
"
To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty. To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

From the Conservative point of view that describes the impact of Brexit rather well, just substitute the word "Brexit" for "Glass"

 

[oldtom]

This is Olympic standard verbiage from our lame duck PM:

https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1005134516581814273

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

This is Olympic standard verbiage from our lame duck PM:

https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1005134516581814273

Tom

And yet people will still vote for this creature? amazing

 

[oldgroaner]

The words of an old Hank Williams song (more or less) would make a fitting Brexit Anthem

The Sun comes up, the Sun goes down
The Brexit Policy goes round and round
May puts a proposal up, Boris puts it down
Life gets tedious don't it?

Moggy is chewing at No 10's door
when he gets through he's gonna be sore
He'll find Jezza already in it

Davis is sleeping night and morn
the laziest creature ever born
He's howling cause Barnier treats him with scorn
And he's just too tired to move over.

Old Boris he must be sick. Theresa Jabbed him in the rump with a stick.He humped his back but he didn't kick.Something cockeyed somewhere.

The Money tree's gone dry and the The Russians won't pay, we'll all be broke come Brexit day
But we'll all have BLUE PASSPORTS so it's OK!

Life gets tedious dont it.......

 

[Zlatan]

he's got a bee in his bonnet alright but he acts on instinct, not judgement. The world trade needs rules to prosper, and rules are the result of judgement and negotiation, not instinct.
You need to read up on why 270% duty on US milk import to Canada, it's the same story over here, in the EU. The EU puts up high tariff on American cars and on foodstuff for the same reasons. Tariffs are negotiated by experts, not Donald Trump, he hasn't got the expertise.

That will be Chinese and German experts then?
And, I, ve read up why Canada inflicts 270% tariff on US dairy. It's senseless. One side of border can operate herds as small as 60,other side needs thousands. On Canadian side (by their own words) dairy farmers can and do maintain the traditional method of farming more akin to 18th Century, giving its farmers a wealthy lifestyle (40% over their own national average earnings), meanwhile over border Dairy farmers are comniting suicide.
As normal some expert can justify it.

 

[Woosh]

That will be Chinese and German experts then?

there is no need for sarcasm. DT calls a lot of important people liars and cheats. Let's just wait until some of them pay him back the compliment. What is he going to do? send in his smart bombs?

 

[Zlatan]

And yet people will still vote for this creature? amazing

Because we dont have an alternative.

 

[Zlatan]

there is no need for sarcasm. DT calls a lot of important people liars and cheats. Let's just wait until some of them pay him back the compliment. What is he going to do? send in his smart bombs?

Apologies if you think it was sarcastic, if you read justification for mentioned tariffs majority are from German "experts,".
Perhaps you can find an altruistic reason for a 270% tariff? I can't.

 

[Woosh]

Apologies if you think it was sarcastic, if you read justification for mentioned tariffs majority are from German "experts,".
Perhaps you can find an altruistic reason for a 270% tariff? I can't.

milk was sold as milk years ago, when the tariffs were negotiated between the USA and Canada. Tariffs were agreed - Canadians pay high duty to sell their soft wood to the USA, Wisconsin farmers pay high tariff to sell their milk to Canada. The alternative is US farmers can't sell their milk to Canada and Canadians can't sell their wood. You see the point of negotiating tariffs to enable trade across the US/Canada border?
Canada farmers used to produce too much milk, they needed a 'CAP' so to speak. So Canada set up an agricultural policy to protect dairy farmers and keep the price artificially high. You can draw a parallel with the common agricultural policy in the EU. The 270% tariff is to bring the US milk to Canadian price. There were loopholes: milk products did not have the 270% tariff. So, in recent years, US farmers extract milk protein and cream from milk and sell it to Canadians to make cheese and butter. They've made a mint. Just like I'd import e-bikes from China without electronics instead of normal bikes and not paying anti dumping duty.
Eventually, the trade in milk products has increased to the point that 90% of Quebec dairy farmers have given up their farms. Only very large dairy farms can survive. The Canadians introduced then new laws to close those milk derivative loopholes. The US farmers got upset because they can't sell about $300 millions a year of milk protein and cream to the Candians.
DT saw it as cheating. It's up to you to decide who is cheating.

 

[Zlatan]

milk was sold as milk years ago, when the tariffs were negotiated between the USA and Canada. Tariffs were agreed - Canadians pay high duty to sell their soft wood to the USA, Wisconsin farmers pay high tariff to sell their milk to Canada. The alternative is US farmers can't sell their milk to Canada and Canadians can't sell their wood. You see the point of negotiating tariffs to enable trade across the US/Canada border?
Canada farmers used to produce too much milk, they needed a 'CAP' so to speak. So Canada set up an agricultural policy to protect dairy farmers and keep the price artificially high. You can draw a parallel with the common agricultural policy in the EU. The 270% tariff is to bring the US milk to Canadian price. There were loopholes: milk products did not have the 270% tariff. So, in recent years, US farmers extract milk protein and cream from milk and sell it to Canadians to make cheese and butter. They've made a mint. Just like I'd import e-bikes from China without electronics instead of normal bikes and not paying anti dumping duty.
Eventually, the trade in milk products has increased to the point that 90% of Quebec dairy farmers have given up their farms. Only very large dairy farms can survive. The Canadians introduced then new laws to close those milk derivative loopholes. The US farmers got upset because they can't sell about $300 millions a year of milk protein and cream to the Candians.
DT saw it as cheating. It's up to you to decide who is cheating.

However you look at it it is not a level playing field. In past USA has been so rich these "small" issues in their eyes have been insignificant losses. Those days have gone.
Take a trip to Detroit, I visited 30 years ago. A vibrant thriving city. It's gone, derelict gang and drug infested areas in its place. Motor City died years ago, whilst Germans market share of prestigious American car market grew and grew and all whilst a very beneficial tariff regime was in place for EU. Totally agree with Trump why on earth past governments didn't step in is simply amazing. There has always been strong propoganda against US cars... on top of the tariffs mentioned.
Times are changing.
Justifying status quo because some expert deemed something right is plainly not working.

 

[oldgroaner]

That will be Chinese and German experts then?
And, I, ve read up why Canada inflicts 270% tariff on US dairy. It's senseless. One side of border can operate herds as small as 60,other side needs thousands. On Canadian side (by their own words) dairy farmers can and do maintain the traditional method of farming more akin to 18th Century, giving its farmers a wealthy lifestyle (40% over their own national average earnings), meanwhile over border Dairy farmers are comniting suicide.
As normal some expert can justify it.

I doesn't need an expert to justify it
Let's consider that: the Americans have huge herds and vasts areas of land so create cheap milk.
Imagine the environmental damage huge herds do and the stress on the landscape
They have a huge market at home , why are they in danger of commiting suicide?
That's due to pressure from the supermarkets they serve, nothing whatever to do with the Canadians.and lets face it they are the worlds worst at using the land with long term operation in mind, remember the mid west dust bowls?
Quite rightly the Canadians protect their agriculture from being swamped by cheap American Milk, despite what you think, they have every right too, and if they want to give their farmers a wealthy lifestyle and protect the landscape from damaging intensive Dairy herds, they don't need your permission do they?
Perhaps the Americans should take lessons from the Canadians not the other way round.
And try living with the landscape not raping it for short term profit.

 

[oldgroaner]

However you look at it it is not a level playing field. In past USA has been so rich these "small" issues in their eyes have been insignificant losses. Those days have gone.
Take a trip to Detroit, I visited 30 years ago. A vibrant thriving city. It's gone, derelict gang and drug infested areas in its place. Motor City died years ago, whilst Germans market share of prestigious American car market grew and grew and all whilst a very beneficial tariff regime was in place for EU. Totally agree with Trump why on earth past governments didn't step in is simply amazing. There has always been strong propoganda against US cars... on top of the tariffs mentioned.
Times are changing.
Justifying status quo because some expert deemed something right is plainly not working.

So you would rather the Americans flood our market with cheap cars?
How will that make your Brexit dream come true?

 

[oldgroaner]

Because we dont have an alternative.

We have two
Vote for someone else
Dont vote for anyone

 

[Zlatan]

So you would rather the Americans flood our market with cheap cars?
How will that make your Brexit dream come true?

If they can build good cars cheaper than those we currently buy of course I, d buy them. Said that earlier. The Mustang in either of its engine sizes is
a performance car bargain without its 25.5 % add ons.
If they could replicate that kind of V
FM in other sectors of course they would sell. Cant see your opposition to it... Suspect it's because I agree with Trumps stance. Why should EU have a beneficial tariff regime??? Seems totally alien to your normal opinions.