Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Been waiting for the cleverer Milliband to return...
He should challenge Corbyn first then actually oppose government.He doesn't need support of floating policy MPs. I wonder if he could unite a broken and disparate Labour movement ? Corbyn plainly cant. The party is waiting for a leader to oppose government...
I,ve actually met Millbands...it strikes you immediately how unfair life can be...one got looks and brains...other got left overs, but he,s done well with tools he was given.Hope for us all.

 

[flecc]

The party is waiting for a leader to oppose government...

No, the party has the leader it wanted in Corbyn. That's why they voted him into office, they want a true socialist Labour government, not a pseudo Tory or LibDem one.

It's the Blairite pseudo Tory MPs who don't want Corbyn, but they are only part of the Labour opposition and many in the party want to kick them out.

Theresa May is of course in the identical position with members of her government undermining her all the time.
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[Woosh]

JC put Chakrabarti in his team, he could do just the same for David Milliband.
That would broaden their appeal.

 

[Zlatan]

No, the party has the leader it wanted in Corbyn. That's why they voted him into office, they want a true socialist Labour government, not a pseudo Tory or LibDem one.

It's the Blairite pseudo Tory MPs who don't want Corbyn, but they are only part of the Labour opposition and many in the party want to kick them out.

Theresa May is of course in the identical position with members of her government undermining her all the time.
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Yes, the.labour party is broken...Corbyn has proved he can neither unite members or create a viable alternative..( ir even oppose government). Corbyn's only chance will be to lead a shambolic union of parties..which will only give us yet another weak government.
Blair has lots to answer for , an indirect consequence is everybody's resilience to a centralist labour ....but it will happen...its the only real alternative...
I,m hoping Milliband says right things. He,s more chance than Corbyn. But why has he joined up with Sir Clegg...Not a good start.

 

[flecc]

Yes, the.labour party is broken...

And the Tory government is broken in two also - - - -

And the LibDems were broken by coalition - - - -

And the UK was broken by devolution - - - -

And England is broken by the North - South divide - - - -

And the capital London is divided from the rest of the country - - - -

All of which adds up to one obvious fact. This is the worst possible time to be embarking on Brexit.
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[oldgroaner]

Since everyone seems to regard parliament to be inhabited by buffoons, the question is why did anyone imagine in the their wildest dreams brexit could be achieved successfully? And vote for it?
They must have entertained the utterly mad notion that the government would work with their interests in mind

And the Tory government is broken in two also - - - -

And the LibDems were broken by coalition - - - -

And the UK was broken by devolution - - - -

And England is broken by the North - South divide - - - -

And the capital London is divided from the rest of the country - - - -

All of which adds up to one obvious fact. This is the worst possible time to be embarking on Brexit.
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Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[flecc]

They must have entertained the utterly mad notion that the government would work with their interests in mind

I doubt they even considered our government when voting in the referendum.

I think their motivatation was in essence that foreigners are bad for us, impeding our inherent British superiority.
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[Woosh]

Since everyone seems to regard parliament to be inhabited by buffoons, the question is why did anyone imagine in the their wildest dreams brexit could be achieved successfully? And vote for it?

I didn't vote for it but nearly did, and came to accept the result of the vote.
There is always a cost to accepting a set of values, if the majority wants it, then the majority has to pay for it.
As far as benefits of brexit go, I don't hold my breath for it because I think it's for the long term, we may do better joining with Norway. Apparently, they can see the benefit of us joining EEA and EFTA too.
We can always apply to rejoin the EU later if membership of EFTA does not work out.
It will cost some money but we would never know if we didn't try.

 

[Danidl]

I didn't vote for it but nearly did, and came to accept the result of the vote.
There is always a cost to accepting a set of values, if the majority wants it, then the majority has to pay for it.
As far as benefits of brexit go, I don't hold my breath for it because I think it's for the long term, we may do better joining with Norway. Apparently, they can see the benefit of us joining EEA and EFTA too.
We can always apply to rejoin the EU later if membership of EFTA does not work out.
It will cost some money but we would never know if we didn't try.

Your last sentence is the giveaway... There are plenty of things we would never know or fully experience until we try them... Putting ones hand in a fire is one of them. But more accurately, the UK did have plenty of experience of life being outside the EEC , and in more favourable circumstances,as it had the remainder of its empire to act as a market.

 

[oldgroaner]

I didn't vote for it but nearly did, and came to accept the result of the vote.
There is always a cost to accepting a set of values, if the majority wants it, then the majority has to pay for it.
As far as benefits of brexit go, I don't hold my breath for it because I think it's for the long term, we may do better joining with Norway. Apparently, they can see the benefit of us joining EEA and EFTA too.
We can always apply to rejoin the EU later if membership of EFTA does not work out.
It will cost some money but we would never know if we didn't try.

Rather like putting you head in a gas oven and asking someone else to turn on the gas?
Bad Plan, based on wishful thinking and nothing else.
Just how are we supposed to benefit when the country is in a parlous state?
The only likely long term result is to end up back in the EU as a junior member.
It's the only way we will survive.

 

[oldgroaner]

I didn't vote for it but nearly did, and came to accept the result of the vote.
There is always a cost to accepting a set of values, if the majority wants it, then the majority has to pay for it.
As far as benefits of brexit go, I don't hold my breath for it because I think it's for the long term, we may do better joining with Norway. Apparently, they can see the benefit of us joining EEA and EFTA too.
We can always apply to rejoin the EU later if membership of EFTA does not work out.
It will cost some money but we would never know if we didn't try.

Why did you accept the result of a vote based on lies, propaganda and psychological warfare persuasion?
Even the fact that it was only Advisory was suppressed to get fools to vote!
That way lies chaos

 

[flecc]

It's the only way we will survive.

I suppose we could investigate alternatives.

We don't have much going for us, but we do have nuclear missile submarines, two new aircraft carriers, a fleet of Albion class assault ships, Eurofighters, B35s and drones.

So we could become the world's first mercenary nation, for hire to help fight other's international or civil wars. After all, our CV has centuries of successfully attacking others.

For once the USA would have to pay for our fighting on their behalf.
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[Woosh]

So we could become the world's first mercenary nation, for hire to help fight other's international or civil wars. After all, our CV has centuries of successfully attacking others.

For once the USA would have to pay for our fighting on their behalf.

you can see clearly the profit of wars in one particular example, the USA. It has a negative trade balance with each and every single one of its partners. Like vassal states paying taxes to the empire each year.
You frighten your trade partners with wars, they will produce or dig out of the ground for you in return.
Guess what, we have negative trade balance too.
No wonder the vassal states all want nuclear weapons of their own.

 

[Zlatan]

"Milliband said he was baffled as to why the Labour leadership was so worried about supporting membership of the EEA. “I fear the position makes Jeremy Corbyn the midwife of a hard Brexit,” he said."

Seems to me Milliband has got a better grasp of situation already than JC...but will the 3 of them prove to far right ? ( Morgan and Clegg are his compatriots in this attempt, former a Tory remainer ( taking some half wit to court for sending her a death threat) and Clegg...a remainer..
A very strange union to say the least...

But all you Corbynites knocking leavers just bear in mind Corbyn is working under the assumption , probably wrongly, he cant carry out all his policies in EC or EEA. Why else would he take stance he is doing ?
Or is Milliband wrong Flecc ??
Does anyone actually understand or even know JC's stance on all this ?

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Independent
"
Brexit: No significant progress made on any issue in negotiations since March, says EU
Michel Barnier said talks on the future relationship had not even started despite getting the green light in March

Hands up anyone that thinks this will change in the forseeable future!

 

[flecc]

Does anyone actually understand or even know JC's stance on all this ?

Yes, and I've already told you more than once. Corbyn isn't exposing his position, simply to keep hold of all his support.

He knows that once he commits, a sector of his vote will be lost, which depending on which way he goes.

Leaving the decision to the end means he can capitalise on public dissatisfaction with the current government and their Brexit failings before his position is thoroughly analysed, discussed and interpreted.
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[Zlatan]

Milliband said it better than I ever could.

"I fear the position makes Jeremy Corbyn the midwife of a hard Brexit,”

By which time whichever side of fence Corbyn falls on will be too late. We will be out and even if wanting to return negotiating an even worse position.
Like I said,but the point is lost on you flecc, leaving must actually suit Corbyn's stance.

 

[Woosh]

Milliband said it better than I ever could.

"I fear the position makes Jeremy Corbyn the midwife of a hard Brexit,”

By which time whichever side of fence Corbyn falls on will be too late. We will be out and even if wanting to return negotiating an even worse position.
Like I said,but the point is lost on you flecc, leaving must actually suit Corbyn's stance.

we are leaving alright but it is difficult for TM to get her party to support a soft brexit at this moment. She relies on the the BBC to explain the difficulties of her two customs proposals and gently point to the benefit of EEA membership

 

[flecc]

By which time whichever side of fence Corbyn falls on will be too late. We will be out.
Like I said,but the point is lost on you flecc, leaving must actually suit Corbyn's stance.

There's no point lost to me, it's you who isn't getting it. Corbyn's stance is simply that of not losing his majority Brexit supporters. How many more times do I have to point this out to you?

If Corbyn backed Remain the huge number of Labour Brexit supporters would flock to UKIP and revive that party.
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[Zlatan]

There's no point lost to me, it's you who isn't getting it. Corbyn's stance is simply that of not losing his majority Brexit supporters. How many more times do I have to point this out to you?

If Corbyn backed Remain the huge number of Labour Brexit supporters would flock to UKIP and revive that party.
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By that opinion he really is between a rock and a hard place..by that token he cant support remain or leave...hang on a minute...
How on earth is that a strategy...its barmy.