Brexit, for once some facts.

[mike killay]

And therein lies the fault with your argument
"do not see the damage that the EU is doing to the majority of their fellow citizens."
Just insert the words "British Government" in replacement of EU, and that will make the statement true.
.

No,

1 EU 'investment' was our own money. We gave them £3, they gave us £1 back but would not let us spend it on what we wanted.
2 Uncontrolled EU immigration put pressure on houses, schools, hospitals, surgeries, jobs and roads. Probably more noticeable in a small country.
Anyway, despite your complaints, you appear to have accepted the reality of Brexit, just as I would have accepted a Remain vote.
Democracy

 

[flecc]

The problem is that the Metropolitan people live in a selfish bubble, they voted for themselves and do not see the damage that the EU is doing to the majority of their fellow citizens.

You've posted this before Mike and i challenged it then, since it's simply untrue.

Yes, London voted Remain, hardly surprising given the immigration background of so much of that population. But our second city of Birmingham overwhelmingly voted Leave, as did the large metropolian areas of the North East and many others.

Looking at the metropolitan areas voting as I did at the time, it became obvious that much of the 48% plus Remain vote came from outside the metropolitan areas.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I'm not a fan of opinion polls, because just asking 1000 people doesn't prove anything, so I'm afraid that graph doesn't help anyone Trex.

However.... I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you think this:

2 Uncontrolled EU immigration put pressure on houses, schools, hospitals, surgeries, jobs and roads. Probably more noticeable in a small country.

you are simply wrong. immigration in this country puts more into the economy, and supports the NHS etc etc. If you think there is excess pressure on the services, its not because of the EU immigrants, its because of a lack of investment.

That's simply a fact.

We can knock these points about back and forward as much as we like.. .the problem is that this should never have been put to a public vote as most people on both sides have no idea of what they are voting for or the implications of their vote.

I really really do believe that no government will hit the red button, they didn't want it, they don't need it and it would be a disaster for our country and the economy. All the movements since the vote have backed this up, its just a big political game now to see who can come out it with the least scars. The problem is that its us that are suffering with all the chaos.

Shimano put their prices up by a lot last week.

an Ultegra brake went from £34.99 to £49.99 RRP. Has anyone who rides bikes seen a similar wage increase... no! So who's going to suffer? Not the government.

 

[trex]

Mike, democracy is when politicians like Johnson, Gove, Leadsom are held to account for their claims and can be brought to justice.

http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjustice

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Mike, democracy is when politicians like Johnson, Gove, Leadsom are held to account for their claims and can be brought to justice.

http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjustice

Great idea but lets start with Blair and Campbell , then work down to Cameron and Osbourne. Johnson and Grove are well down list.
Not sure why we even know regional votes, we didn't need to. Was a proportional type vote, with simply total number of votes being important. Its proved very divisive knowing town by town. Makes no difference to either what happened or what will happen. Lets hope government had learned from it...somehow doubt it,besides seems some are enjoying the division. Only excitement they get perhaps ?

Anybody who thinks politicians are actually accountable must have been living under a rock for last 50 years...tell me one who has been brought to task ?? Archer ? For lying ??? If you can take country to war, send its young men to wage that war knowingly under equipped, being responsible for the deaths of thousands with repercussions to this day and beyond and all based in a pack of lies maintained by killing a few more...well you get my just.

 

[tillson]

brexiters, where is your good news?
apparently, if there was a second referendum, Wales would vote to remain according to a recent ITV poll.

http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2016-07-05/poll-shows-welsh-voters-now-support-eu-membership/

as long as brexiters avoid to acknowledge that 16 millions plus have voted to remain, they don't have a clue do they.

Trex you seem obsessed with polls. I see that this on has been carried out by YouGov.

Why, when the basis of your argument to remain in the EU is that brexiters were fed incorrect information, do you quote figures produced by an organisation with a track record of failure?

People in my area, academics, proffesionals, retired, young, still seem happy with their choice to exit. They accept that there will be a downturn in the future as a result, but see greater risks in remaining. Those risks come from Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain and I'm sure other hopeless economies within the EU.

I have some first hand experience of Greece. Whilst there is wealth there, the culture of tax dodging, underhand dealings, and exploitation of pension rights which is engrained in their DNA. They will never solve the debt crisis, their population will not cooperate. My knowledge of Italy leads me to think the same there too.

The EU will throws good money after bad into countries like these. They should never have joined the EU or the Euro. Germany will soon stop smiling and then they can watch out. Us being out of both the EU and the Euro is, in mine and may other people's opinion, the best place to be when it all comes crashing down.

I was watching the French PM being booed and jeered on tv last night. There is a lot of anger out there in France and even more, which is being suppressed and not reported, in Germany. I'm surprised the attempted killing spree by the migrant in Germany was reported yesterday.

I heard a phrase used for the first time yesterday by the BBC. "There is more to democracy than a majority vote." Keep going with that one and brexiters are too stupid to realise what they have voted for. Whip up some more resentment, vitriol and anger. Let's see where these lunatic theories take us. One thing I can predict, that place won't be very nice for some people.

 

[tillson]

http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjustice

£79,710 Raised of £100,000 target.

Those pound notes will be used for the same purpose as your much quoted petition, lavatory paper. And rightly so.

 

[derf]

I'm not a fan of opinion polls, because just asking 1000 people doesn't prove anything, so I'm afraid that graph doesn't help anyone Trex.

However.... I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you think this:



you are simply wrong. immigration in this country puts more into the economy, and supports the NHS etc etc. If you think there is excess pressure on the services, its not because of the EU immigrants, its because of a lack of investment.

That's simply a fact.

We can knock these points about back and forward as much as we like.. .the problem is that this should never have been put to a public vote as most people on both sides have no idea of what they are voting for or the implications of their vote.

I really really do believe that no government will hit the red button, they didn't want it, they don't need it and it would be a disaster for our country and the economy. All the movements since the vote have backed this up, its just a big political game now to see who can come out it with the least scars. The problem is that its us that are suffering with all the chaos.

Shimano put their prices up by a lot last week.

an Ultegra brake went from £34.99 to £49.99 RRP. Has anyone who rides bikes seen a similar wage increase... no! So who's going to suffer? Not the government.

I agree,the only thing I would add is that the brexit vote has already done significant damage to the UK,and to each of us individually. I can understand that there are UK citizens who felt left behind by years of Osborne austerity and rewarding the rich. But this was not the EU,who were trying to impose limits on bonus' for examples doing. To me brexit is just another example of corrupt local politics manipulating voters to their own detriment

 

[trex]

some polls are better than no poll, Tillson.

 

[tillson]

some polls are better than no poll, Tillson.

Actually, you have convinced me.

YouGov is useless. They always predict the wrong result and are natorious for doing so. No poll company ever, anywhere could be as bad. They are the holy grail of pi$$-pot organisations. So, if they are predicting that remain would win today, their track record would suggest that a leave vote would be delivered.

Thank you for confirming our thoughts. By the way, you lost.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

By the way, you lost.

I think we can all agree on one thing... looking at the current state of the economy, the country, politics and our reputation abroad.... we've all lost.

 

[tillson]

I think we can all agree on one thing... looking at the current state of the economy, the country, politics and our reputation abroad.... we've all lost.

Some people are natural losers. They always perceive that they have lost and can never see good in anything and invariably they do lose out. They view change with suspicion and fear and never optimism and no matter what the outcome, their perception is that they have lost.

 

[trex]

Actually, you have convinced me.

YouGov is useless. They always predict the wrong result and are natorious for doing so. No poll company ever, anywhere could be as bad. They are the holy grail of pi$$-pot organisations. So, if they are predicting that remain would win today, their track record would suggest that a leave vote would be delivered.

Thank you for confirming our thoughts. By the way, you lost.

polls are unreliable - we all know that, especially when the margin is small. They however help to check my argument before spouting it out on the forum. As long as brexiters still have no clue which brexit it's going to be, it is reasonable to speculate that it may not happen at all.

 

[flecc]

Not sure why we even know regional votes, we didn't need to. Was a proportional type vote, with simply total number of votes being important. Its proved very divisive knowing town by town.

Very true Flud, but I suppose if we were only fed a final total and the result had come out as Remain, suiting the government, there would inevitably be accusations of a fix. Those accusations did happen in the 1975 referendum, due to having different constituency areas being arranged just for that vote, the accusation being that this made fiddling to produce that Remain result easier.

I daresay that would be why the government decided to release all area details this time.
.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Very true Flud, but I suppose if we were only fed a final total and the result had come out as Remain, suiting the government, there would inevitably be accusations of a fix. Those accusations did happen in the 1975 referendum, due to having different constituency areas being arranged just for that vote, the accusation being that this made fiddling to produce that Remain result easier.

I daresay that would be why the government decided to release all area details this time.
.

Yes that's fair enough flecc but wouldn't lesser of two evils been us all united in distrust of our government rather than setting region against region.
A bit off topic I suppose but was speaking to a good friend other day who's father recently died. I was saying I thought he,d be pleased with result but would have handled situation with calm and patience either way. Her reply was" he,s never lived through anything like this though".
I didn't know how to answer. This chap had fought his way up through Italy in 44/45. He had a string of medals he wore proudly and was a Eurosceptic. The scare campaign has so much to answer to. We witness it on here and its been blatant failed propoganda. No matter what your leanings are this can not be denied. Its why Osbourne has fallen on his sword. ( well pushed onto his sword)

 

[gray198]

To me leaving the EU could be compared to say giving up smoking or drinking or drugs. You know that it will be painful and extremely difficult, but in the long run it will be much more beneficial than taking the easy option and carrying on in the same unhealthy way

 

[flecc]

Yes that's fair enough flecc but wouldn't lesser of two evils been us all united in distrust of our government rather than setting region against region.

I completely agree, but I doubt the government had even contemplated losing the vote, leading to some complacency in making the arrangements.

It will calm down with time, but that could be speeded up if the government would only be more decisive. All Theresa May need do is hand in article 50 notice, thus bringing to an end the "will we, won't we" speculation.
.

 

[flecc]

To me leaving the EU could be compared to say giving up smoking or drinking or drugs. You know that it will be painful and extremely difficult, but in the long run it will be much more beneficial than taking the easy option and carrying on in the same unhealthy way

If we succeeded outside. But if we didn't it could be like giving up cannabis in favour of heroin.
.

 

[trex]

Those pound notes will be used for the same purpose as your much quoted petition, lavatory paper. And rightly so.

http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjustice

Since I posted this moning, the fighting funds have increased from £79,710 to £90,115 Raised of £100,000 target.

It will hit £100,000 sometime tomorrow.

It seems that there are plenty of backers for legal action against Johnson, Gove and Leadsom.

 

[tillson]

http://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/brexitjustice

Since I posted this moning, the fighting funds have increased from £79,710 to £90,115 Raised of £100,000 target.

It will hit £100,000 sometime tomorrow.

It seems that there are plenty of backers for legal action against Johnson, Gove and Leadsom.

It's heading towards the same place as that e-petition. Nowhere.