Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

You are a scuba diver IIRC? CO2 intoxication is a thing for scuba divers, we are cyclists and above the surface of the ocean you have very little chance of being intoxicated by CO2. One risk is dry ice, I haven't seen any of that since my disco days back in the '70s...

You breath in air which is composed of all kinds of stuff, your lungs grab a molecule or two of oxygen and exhale CO2 and H2O just like an IC engine. If you are in a closed environnement (paper bags are not my idea of closed but anyway...) you continue removing oxygen until there are not enough molecules of oxygen left to form molecules of CO2, your lungs have "burnt up" all the oxygen just like the car motor running in the closed garage after the love of your life left you for the milkman...

I can see logic in your explanation but ( IMHO) there is a fundamental flaw.
Lets assume CO is produced somewhere. ( its not at lungs, that is simply transfer medium) The CO would be carried back to lungs by haemoglobin...but the O2 levels are dwindling...so even if Haemoglobin released CO the single O molecule would be grabbed back byhaemoglobin , attempting to become oxyhaemoglobin..consequently the CO would never be present in the bag...
O would drop to around zero and CO2 rise...but no CO could be present ??( Its why CO is so dangerous, haemoglobin thinks its oxygen so carries it but muscles cant use it)
And are our bodies capable of producing CO at muscle under diminishing O being carried to them ?? I didn't think so...the burning we talk of took place hours before...producing glycogen at muscles..Its not burning at muscles as we understand it...or I,ve had it wrong for years...but that is quite possible..???
But either way...we should be doing things at a national level to reduce CO2..

Dont forget Kiwi our bodies quite regularly go into oxygen debt. At these times they do not produce CO but lactic acid. I think whilst rebreathing into a bag initially we would feel dizzy, our bodies respond to CO2 levels and not O2. Eventually as O2 dropped, lactic acid would start to build at muscles. We,d pass out from lack of O2 and CO would be pretty constant. ??? ( Our brains dont sense low Oxygen but high CO2...and respond accordingly...)

 

[Zlatan]

Good luck Flecc... Out of interest have you scrapped or sold your old cars ???

 

[flecc]

Good luck Flecc... Out of interest have you scrapped or sold your old cars ???

No action yet of course until the power is in place and I have an e-car.

Then the Suzuki will go, it's a low emission petrol 7 year old with very low mileage. After the last MOT when I inquired of the mechanic "OK?", he said with a shrug "It's a new car", so that will cause no sold on problems.

The 2006 140,000 mile Mitsubishi L200 diesel pick-up stays for the present as it's only used in the nature reserve, but in a year or two's time I'll be scrapping it for spares since that intensive off road work in rough conditions has knocked it about a bit so it wouldn't win any Concours d'Elegance. The upholstery has to be seen to be believed.

In fact I might be tempted to drive it to the nearby We Buy Any Car first, just for a laugh!
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

FALSE NEWS ALERT!

All my posts above about CO2 were complete and utter BS. As the thread had wandered off into a very interesting but completely (is it completely?) off topic subject I had a dabble with alternative reality... Sorry! Couldn't resist.

As all who followed their chemistry and biology lessons well know CO2 and water vapor (H2O) are by products of breathing. CO is a by product of burning hydrocarbon.

What others have written about CO2 narcolepsy is true but has nothing to do with CO2 levels in the atmosphere. Yet... Some seem hell bent on making the planet unlivable - yes I am pointing at you Donald!

 

[Zlatan]

Tt

FALSE NEWS ALERT!

All my posts above about CO2 were complete and utter BS. As the thread had wandered off into a very interesting but completely (is it completely?) off topic subject I had a dabble with alternative reality... Sorry! Couldn't resist.

As all who followed their chemistry and biology lessons well know CO2 and water vapor (H2O) are by products of breathing. CO is a by product of burning hydrocarbon.

What others have written about CO2 narcolepsy is true but has nothing to do with CO2 levels in the atmosphere. Yet... Some seem hell bent on making the planet unlivable - yes I am pointing at you Donald!

To be fair our bodies do produce a bit of CO, not sure how, why or how its dealt with...but its made us all think ...a little bit..
Nice one..

Sounds a plan Flecc...I,m going back to petrol engined Van...but with an LPG wet conversion..They are loads better than they were...Slightly worse MPG, very slightly less power but smoother , loads cheaper and better for environment.. ( IMHO)

 

[Woosh]

so even if Haemoglobin released CO the single O molecule would be grabbed back byhaemoglobin , attempting to become oxyhaemoglobin..

you misunderstand the chemistry, zlatan. The CO poisoning is different to CO2 poisoning. CO poisoning is via the reaction between CO gas and hemoglobin, forming a carbonyl ligand between the Hb and the CO. The main thing is the bond between carbon and oxygen in a carbonyl group is a double bond. It is stable, ie, the oxygen is not going to detach from its Hb partner by changing the concentration of Hb or CO or oxygen. The percentage of Hb will continue to reduce as long as you still breath in CO because HbCO does not take part in breathing. You'll die of asphyxiation although you may have plenty of oxygen available.

 

[Zlatan]

you misunderstand the chemistry, zlatan. The CO poisoning is different to CO2 poisoning. CO poisoning is via the reaction between CO gas and hemoglobin, forming a carbonyl ligand between the Hb and the CO. The main thing is the bond between carbon and oxygen in a carbonyl group is a double bond. It is stable, ie, the oxygen is not going to detach from its Hb partner by changing the concentration of Hb or CO or oxygen. The percentage of Hb will continue to reduce as long as you still breath in CO because HbCO does not take part in breathing. You'll die of asphyxiation although you may have plenty of oxygen available.

Mmm. Its not surprising tho ...!! You,ll have to translate this Woosh..

I think I understand the methodology of CO poisoning.....its the CO2 that causes confusion. I don't think I,ve ever seen or heard of anyone dying from CO2 poisoning but lots of CO. Divers invariably recover from CO2 problems and decompression tanks are often used for victims of CO poisoning. ( A relative used to operate chamber in Plymouth, they had as many attempted suicides in it as divers) Not sure of chemistry but the high pressure helps remove CO...)
Anyhow...all OT...but we should be introducing measures to reduce all pollutants from ICE, especially whilst there seems to be no viable alternative. LPG would help...

 

[flecc]

Sounds a plan Flecc...I,m going back to petrol engined Van...but with an LPG wet conversion..They are loads better than they were...Slightly worse MPG, very slightly less power but smoother , loads cheaper and better for environment.. ( IMHO)

Sounds good. Although all the things we are doing individually are a drop in the ocean, they're all making local breathing conditions better and doing less harm to the local natural world. So all worthwhile and the more we do, the more others will follow to make an even bigger difference.
.

 

[Woosh]

Mmm. Its not surprising tho ...!! You,ll have to translate this Woosh..

each human hemoglobin molecule has 4 sites, each site has two carbon chains, in biochemistry, we usually use the letter R to denote the carbon chains. They can be big or small, that does not matter, but they have one weak bond each available for binding with something (or together to form longer chains like in petroleum alcanes). So you have two arms like the jaws of a pair of pliers. These two R can bind with one atom of oxygen (which has two covalent bonds), so you get HbO8 when oxygen links up with Hb. Inside the cells, CO2 is dissolved as carbonic acid (H20+CO2) written as H+-HCO3-. This form of notation is like that to make it easy to remember that the proton (H+) is relatively free. This proton (seen as low pH) grabs the oxygen from HbO8 and passes the oxygen on to the plasma.
HbCO is stable, the H+ has no effect on it. That's why the concentration of Hb decreases when you breathe in CO.

 

[Kudoscycles]

OG, the entire tenor of your argument is riddled with spurious objections. Dare i say it it is arguement for arguements sake. It is a classical egg and chicken situation. Companies need workers and will provide the facilities .
In the old days, companies provided bicycle sheds and canteens, not necessarily for altruism. Why would they not provide charging points? . Many workers get health insurance subsidised by employers so why not electric charging.
Many workers live in flats and tower blocks and many others live in 3 bedroom semis . Some workers commute by train, by bike, by car by foot ..

Just an amusing aside....In Suzhou I was wandering behind a Debenhams style chinese department store....there was a cable hanging out of an office window conected to a multi plug,in turn conected to more multi plugs,there must have been 20 e-bikes connected to the one cable...when I touched it,it was hot...the office staff were stealing the electricity from the business....surprised the fuse didnt blow,probably put a nail across it.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Today,Boris is going to justify to a commitee the millions he wasted on his ill conceived and aborted Thames Garden bridge.
'Now look, this really is insignificant to the billions I can waste on Brexit'
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Today,Boris is going to justify to a commitee the millions he wasted on his ill conceived and aborted Thames Garden bridge.

The idiot still insists it shouldn't have been cancelled.

It was a crackpot scheme initiated by show biz luvvies and a bunch of similarly minded wasters.
.

 

[Woosh]

there must have been 20 e-bikes connected to the one cable...when I touched it,it was hot..

staff know how to get the most out of a 13A fuse.

 

[Zlatan]

each human hemoglobin molecule has 4 sites, each site has two carbon chains, in biochemistry, we usually use the letter R to denote the carbon chains. They can be big or small, that does not matter, but they have one weak bond each available for binding with something (or together to form longer chains like in petroleum alcanes). So you have two arms like the jaws of a pair of pliers. These two R can bind with one atom of oxygen (which has two covalent bonds), so you get HbO8 when oxygen links up with Hb. Inside the cells, CO2 is dissolved as carbonic acid (H20+CO2) written as H+-HCO3-. This form of notation is like that to make it easy to remember that the proton (H+) is relatively free. This proton (seen as low pH) grabs the oxygen from HbO8 and passes the oxygen on to the plasma.
HbCO is stable, the H+ has no effect on it. That's why the concentration of Hb decreases when you breathe in CO.

Yep, that's cleared that up. Thanks Woosh..

 

[Woosh]

a recent poll carried out by ICM found 49% thought Brexit would have a negative impact with 24% thinking positive.
If there is a second referendum, Scotland, Wales and NI would vote remain, only England may still vote for brexit.

 

[flecc]

a recent poll carried out by ICM found 49% thought Brexit would have a negative impact with 24% thinking positive.
If there is a second referendum, Scotland, Wales and NI would vote remain, only England may still vote for brexit.

And I wouldn't be confident about England. It could easily be a clean sweep for Remain, since the public are increasingly sick of the whole subject and the ever increasing number of seemingly insoluble problems cropping up.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

And I wouldn't be confident about England. It could easily be a clean sweep for Remain, since the public are increasingly sick of the whole subject and the ever increasing number of seemingly insoluble problems cropping up.
.

"seemingly" is the key word but we are England, the impossible we do immediately, miracles may take a couple of days!

 

[Woosh]

And I wouldn't be confident about England. It could easily be a clean sweep for Remain, since the public are increasingly sick of the whole subject and the ever increasing number of seemingly insoluble problems cropping up.
.

it's only insoluble because of the spoiling tactics by the hard brexiters.
If we don't have red lines, the whole brexit thing can be much less chaotic.
Sooner or later, even people with less understanding about imports and exports will come to accept that the EU has much higher standard than the rest of the world and frictionless trade is only possible with at least a custom union.
One thing though, I would have thought that some conservative remainer MPs should at least make the point that none of the FTAs can deliver frictionless trade, especially in services. The SM is the only functioning frictionless trading block in the world.
If, in the future, there exists another frictionless trade zone (eg I can sell and send my bikes to Portugal just as easily as to Portsmouth. Crossing the border within EFTA members is not totally frictionless, I have to produce zero VAT invoice and the customer to sign personal import declaration), there will be an ECJ, a commission etc to function.

 

[Danidl]

Ps
Yes, body does produce tiny amounts of CO but not in normal metabolism of food and breathing. ( that %age would stay constant in paper bag whilst breathing in and out of it...( We,d be poisoning ourselves all time otherwise, the blood grabs CO thinking its O..)
Daniel
Look up toxicity of Oxygen... We survive and flourish on a poison. O poisoning is deadly..( as divers dive deeper the %age O must be reduced to quite tiny levels to avoid it.

My question was more rethorical. Toxic in my mind refers to chemical bonding . All chemicals, including solvents, often considered as benign , such as water are potentially lethal. . Consuming excessive water, can cause electrolyte imbalance and be lethal . it's really a case of all things in moderation!!

 

[Danidl]

You are a scuba diver IIRC? CO2 intoxication is a thing for scuba divers, we are cyclists and above the surface of the ocean you have very little chance of being intoxicated by CO2. One risk is dry ice, I haven't seen any of that since my disco days back in the '70s...

You breath in air which is composed of all kinds of stuff, your lungs grab a molecule or two of oxygen and exhale CO2 and H2O just like an IC engine. If you are in a closed environnement (paper bags are not my idea of closed but anyway...) you continue removing oxygen until there are not enough molecules of oxygen left to form molecules of CO2, your lungs have "burnt up" all the oxygen just like the car motor running in the closed garage after the love of your life left you for the milkman...

.. what if the love of your life is the milkman?