Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
that's not correct, zlatan. CO2 kills with just one part in a hundred and irritation in one part per thousand. Something that kills so easily can't be called mildly toxic. There are not many ways CO2 can be removed from the atmosphere, the trees are the only way we have in towns and cities. I have always believed that the long term solution is to install carbon capture facilities in cities.
Given the atrocious weather we are experiencing at the moment, I thought this advice from a Canadian was right on the button:
Tom
Tom
Not sure about your figures Woosh ee breathe out higher concentrations than you quote but any measures to reduce them should be used. We,d see CO2 reduction withh increased use of LPG.
What is your suggestion ?
We breathe in 1% CO2 and roughly breathe out 4% ( by volume)...Not sure about gas laws but I,d guess 4% by volume is well over 1 in 100.??? But some peoples output is rather more irritating.( not you BTW)
Its perfectly natural for us to breathe in CO2 and by the way..strictly speaking Oxygen is a poison. ??? We are arguing pedantics.
Which would you choose to breathe , a room with high CO2 levels or high in any of the other products of combustion ??
We should be doing stuff to reduce them all. LPG is by no means the solution but its a step forward. But again...what is your suggestion ?
The use off Ecars in cities will have no effect at all on overall figures. It will make regions out of Cities worse.
As for CO2 recapture...perhaps we should be doing rather more to stop the deforestation of rain forests world wide. That's about reducing our need for such things as new cars !! Not starting schemes that rely heavily on limited resources. ( ie E cars and all the new infrastructure they would need)
Last edited:
4% by volume is 4% concentration.
A mole of gas at room temperature occupies about 24 litres, A mole of Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2 have the same volume but of course not the same weight.
So at what %age by volume does CO2 become life threatening ? I,d allways thought ( perhaps wrongly) you would die from oxygen starvation well before poisoning by CO2...
The Answer
Ordinarily, carbon dioxide is not poisonous. It diffuses from your cells into your bloodstream and from there out via your lungs, yet it is always present throughout your body.
However, if you breathe high concentrations of carbon dioxide or re-breathe air (such as from a plastic bag or tent), you may be at risk for carbon dioxide intoxication or even carbon dioxide poisoning.
Source. Medicare.
Breathing in and out of a paper bag is often quoted as a means of coping , calming down during a panic attack..well it used to be.
Presumably the response to that is CO2 intoxication ? The BSAC ( sub aqua) site suggests medical attention is not required for CO2 poisoning...(????) I,d guess that depends on level of exposure ...
Ordinarily, carbon dioxide is not poisonous. It diffuses from your cells into your bloodstream and from there out via your lungs, yet it is always present throughout your body.
However, if you breathe high concentrations of carbon dioxide or re-breathe air (such as from a plastic bag or tent), you may be at risk for carbon dioxide intoxication or even carbon dioxide poisoning.
Source. Medicare.
Breathing in and out of a paper bag is often quoted as a means of coping , calming down during a panic attack..well it used to be.
Presumably the response to that is CO2 intoxication ? The BSAC ( sub aqua) site suggests medical attention is not required for CO2 poisoning...(????) I,d guess that depends on level of exposure ...
Last edited:
What is really happening above is you are consuming oxygen and when there isn't enough oxygen modules molecules left to stick to the carbon molecules to make CO2 you are left with CO and that is really nasty.
Despite what my chemistry teachers thought when I was in school I really was listening
Are you sure you listened.What is really happening above is you are consuming oxygen and when there isn't enough oxygen modules molecules left to stick to the carbon molecules to make CO2 you are left with CO and that is really nasty.
Despite what my chemistry teachers thought when I was in school I really was listening
The process you mention is linked with incomplete burning of fossil fuels. ( ie when insufficient oxygen is present only one molecule is available to attach to the carbon ...so as far extinguishes CO is produced..If plenty of O is around you,ll only get CO2..
I,m not aware of any time/ case where our bodies produce CO..You could breathe in and out of a paper bag all day long and I don't think you,d ever get CO...You,d be starved of O and apparently ( eventually) poisoned by CO2..( Its often a problem for diving rebreathers, not washing out the CO2 but to my limited knowledge CO will not appear, in a rebreather or paper bag)
But, we live and learn. I didn't know CO2 was in slightest toxic ?
What is a poison? . What is toxic?
100ppm is 1:10^5, 1000ppm is 1:10^4,10,000ppm is 0.1%
There are obscure but well understood physiological effects from high CO2 concentration, normal breathing is triggered when internal CO2 concentration exceeds certain thresholds, and can induce heart attacks if exceeded...
CO2
250-350ppm Normal background concentration in outdoor ambient air
350-1,000ppm Concentrations typical of occupied indoor spaces with good air exchange
1,000-2,000ppm Complaints of drowsiness and poor air.
2,000-5,000 ppm Headaches, sleepiness and stagnant, stale, stuffy air. Poor concentration, loss of attention, increased heart rate and slight nausea may also be present.
5,000 Workplace exposure limit (as 8-hour TWA) in most jurisdictions.
>40,000 ppm Exposure may lead to serious oxygen deprivation resulting in permanent brain damage, coma, even death.
CO
9 ppm CO Max prolonged exposure (ASHRAE standard)
35 ppm CO Max exposure for 8 hour work day (OSHA)
800 ppm CO Death within 2 to 3 hours
12,800 ppm CO Death within 1 to 3 minutes
100ppm is 1:10^5, 1000ppm is 1:10^4,10,000ppm is 0.1%
There are obscure but well understood physiological effects from high CO2 concentration, normal breathing is triggered when internal CO2 concentration exceeds certain thresholds, and can induce heart attacks if exceeded...
CO2
250-350ppm Normal background concentration in outdoor ambient air
350-1,000ppm Concentrations typical of occupied indoor spaces with good air exchange
1,000-2,000ppm Complaints of drowsiness and poor air.
2,000-5,000 ppm Headaches, sleepiness and stagnant, stale, stuffy air. Poor concentration, loss of attention, increased heart rate and slight nausea may also be present.
5,000 Workplace exposure limit (as 8-hour TWA) in most jurisdictions.
>40,000 ppm Exposure may lead to serious oxygen deprivation resulting in permanent brain damage, coma, even death.
CO
9 ppm CO Max prolonged exposure (ASHRAE standard)
35 ppm CO Max exposure for 8 hour work day (OSHA)
800 ppm CO Death within 2 to 3 hours
12,800 ppm CO Death within 1 to 3 minutes
Last edited:
about 2% by volume for causing certain death, although it can kill from as little as 1%. CO2 is a narcotic. You can easily die from narcotic poisoning. Of course, if you are suffocated, you are brain dead before the heart muscles and other muscles stop and die.
crossed with danidl's post
His post may be more accurate than my high school memory.
Ps
Yes, body does produce tiny amounts of CO but not in normal metabolism of food and breathing. ( that %age would stay constant in paper bag whilst breathing in and out of it...( We,d be poisoning ourselves all time otherwise, the blood grabs CO thinking its O..)
Daniel
Look up toxicity of Oxygen... We survive and flourish on a poison. O poisoning is deadly..( as divers dive deeper the %age O must be reduced to quite tiny levels to avoid it.
Yes, body does produce tiny amounts of CO but not in normal metabolism of food and breathing. ( that %age would stay constant in paper bag whilst breathing in and out of it...( We,d be poisoning ourselves all time otherwise, the blood grabs CO thinking its O..)
Daniel
Look up toxicity of Oxygen... We survive and flourish on a poison. O poisoning is deadly..( as divers dive deeper the %age O must be reduced to quite tiny levels to avoid it.
Ploughing on regardless towards what is increasingly looking less like 'Brexit' and more like 'Brino', this government, with the full support of the political wing of the Ulster protestant terrorist groups, is treading dangerous ground. The PM and her cabinet need to decide how the Irish border issue might be solved and then see what the EU will accept in that regard.
To any disinterested observer, it continues to look like the UK government is still demanding not only cake, but cake with icing and cherries.....and then eat it all without giving away even one crumb.
Frankie Boyle sees it like this:
Tom
To any disinterested observer, it continues to look like the UK government is still demanding not only cake, but cake with icing and cherries.....and then eat it all without giving away even one crumb.
Frankie Boyle sees it like this:
Tom
You are a scuba diver IIRC? CO2 intoxication is a thing for scuba divers, we are cyclists and above the surface of the ocean you have very little chance of being intoxicated by CO2. One risk is dry ice, I haven't seen any of that since my disco days back in the '70s...
You breath in air which is composed of all kinds of stuff, your lungs grab a molecule or two of oxygen and exhale CO2 and H2O just like an IC engine. If you are in a closed environnement (paper bags are not my idea of closed but anyway...) you continue removing oxygen until there are not enough molecules of oxygen left to form molecules of CO2, your lungs have "burnt up" all the oxygen just like the car motor running in the closed garage after the love of your life left you for the milkman...
Hang on a minute here...you are saying our breath ( at around 4.5% CO2) is poisonous ??
Think we need a source here Woosh..I,m sure I,ve spent nights in night clubs with over 4%...
Who told you about milkman...Its supposed to be a secret ffs.
oh.. those were the days my friend, we thought they never end...
Your memory may have been affected by high concentration of CO2.
I haven't suggested it's simple and largely agree with much of what you've posted, but to infer that e-cars are a dead duck as you and some others seem to be doing is ridiculous. Yes of course there is no hope of them taking over the market, the infrastructure alone will prevent that, but they now have a very real presence which is going to increase much further. See the quotes below:
Figures published by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) each month show that electric car sales in the UK have risen dramatically over the past few years. While only around 500 electric cars were registered per month during the first half of 2014, this has now risen to an average of almost 4,000 per month during 2017.
By the end of 2017, more than 47,000 plug-in cars had been registered over the course of the year - a new record. This significantly improved upon the previous record, set in 2016, improving it by more than 10,000 units. By the end of the year, plug-in cars as a proportion of total UK registrations reached 2.9%, and averaged over 2017, electric cars now represent 1.9% of the total new car market in the UK.
The cumulative figure also shows sustained and dramatic growth of the EV car and van market. According to the Office for Low Emission Vehicles (OLEV) and SMMT, more than 123,000 claims have been made through the Plug-in Car Grant scheme.
Taken together with the fact that a significant number of electric cars and vans which are not eligible for the grant schemes have also been registered, the total UK light-duty electric fleet is more than 137,000 electric vehicles strong.
A key indicator as to the strength of the UK market for electric vehicles is the number of segments covered by the electric models currently available. While the main nine electric cars available in 2011 covered four body styles - city cars, small family cars, small vans and sports coupés - the more than 70 plug-in cars and vans available in 2017 now include superminis, large family cars, hatchbacks, estates, SUVs, executive models, and medium-sized vans.
It's a mix of plug-in hybrids and pure electric, a plug-in hybrid in first place currently with the Leaf all electric in second. I don't differentiate since almost all e-car buyers primarily drive in urban and suburban areas where the hybrids run on e-power only for almost all trips.
There will be a further boost to sales in 2019 since then there will be two 63 kWh pure electric models on the market with genuine 250 mile ranges or over 300 with gentle driving. One is the 3rd generation Nissan Leaf, the other the Hyundai Kona SUV in full electric form.
Meanwhile I've just accepted two quotes to enable electricity to my garage and will be going all electric, so putting my money where my mouth is.
.