Brexit, for once some facts.

[Danidl]

Weird?

I said:

Would have made much more sense to have simply given the monies involved directly to them in Poland, far better investment. One (way), I suggest, that would have been more likely to have been made by a businessman than any politician, or banker come to that.

To pick and choose is surely more weird? I clearly suggested one way in which it would have been better directed? I might just have written it differently if done a second time but even so, clear enough.

Why would Irish housebuyers give money in Poland to Poles?. For some obscure reason we would have preferred the houses we wanted to live in be located in Ireland rather than Warsaw. The German banks would have been pleased to lend money to Poles in Poland in 2002, where there was no work, but they reckoned that they had a better chance of making money by lending it to the Irish.
The logic escapes my tiny Irish mind

 

[PeterL]

Is that a money back guarantee?

A race to the bottom perhaps?

 

[PeterL]

Why would Irish housebuyers give money in Poland to Poles?. For some obscure reason we would have preferred the houses we wanted to live in be located in Ireland rather than Warsaw. The German banks would have been pleased to lend money to Poles in Poland in 2002, where there was no work, but they reckoned that they had a better chance of making money by lending it to the Irish.
The logic escapes my tiny Irish mind

The money ended up back in Poland in any event and cost the Poles nothing. I assume that there is more to this than a couple of property developers getting loans from German banks - who pays in the end? I thought, naively perhaps, that the people that loaned money exercised due diligence - obviously not and not with just this example of course!

 

[Zlatan]

The arrogance was in the assumption of ownership of policies, these are supposed to be intended for all, and perhaps you need reminding that the rich actually do pck and choose which taxes they pay on that basis, and use influence to ensure not only is that the minimum possible, but defrayed against a plethora of fiddles and expenses, which even when they overstep the mark , they have cast iron guarantees of not facing any criminal actions against them that have any chance of being sucessful

I suggest to you that is the way it works for the rich, though certainly not the poor, and Tory policies are always canted to ensure that situation remains "Conserved"

That is utter rubbish. You have a serious problem that distorts your opinions OG. Just examine IHT, CGT etc etc. Yes there are some who manage to avoid tax both legally and illegally but the vast majority of folk, wealthy and not so wealthy, have little intention of avoiding tax. (For last 10 years of my real working life I worked in Probate , calculating IHT on Estates) The amounts collected (40%) are staggering.
Saying rich avoid tax shows no understanding at all of what's happened in UK over last 40 years. All those Stately homes you despise are more than likely owned by National Trust now because of IHT.
One of aspects that always pleasantly surprised me was the feeling by nearly every group I worked for saw the taxes as their responsibility and had a duty to pay the amount required. No more. No less.
You don't seem to mind the taxes wasted on such as Barnier ,Junkers etc etc.
Perhaps you should apply the same standards and examine the background and almost fraudulent behaviour ( which I,ve mentioned before , yet you fail to actually look into the man) of Junker. Look how many millions ( billions) this none elected socialist has tucked away , collected from companies benefitting from the tax laws he introduced in his home country, which now has second highest GDP / capita in world..because of tax fiddling...You are shooting your feet again mentioning tax in UK and wanting a USE with Junkers in charge. His behaviour is a disgrace, yet you Flecc and Tom defend him. I don't understand how any so called socialist can want to be in an organisation that puts Junker at its head.
EU with Junker and socialism are a complete anachronism. Just research the man, its all available if you care to look.

 

[oldtom]

After the latest YouGov poll referred to by Dave Elderfield, and the Independent (they claim!) report on it, linked here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-new-eu-leave-regret-remain-yougov-times-latest-theresa-may-bad-idea-a8000156.html

I think the government's position on 'Brexit' is looking more tenuous today than at any time since the referendum. The tory party is well on the way to self-destruct and I believe the public is sick to the back teeth with the endless, depressing news about the Brussels talks while watching supermarket prices rising inexorably and we haven't even reached any kind of agreement on the exit bill yet!

All the pointers suggest there are some really hard times ahead if we don't rescind A50 and it may be many years before the UK recovers, if at all. My gut feeling now is that leading tory politicians don't want to take responsibility for the execution of a hard 'Brexit' or tumbling out of the EU with no deal at all so they might wish to offload that responsibility to the nation via another referendum but this time, a referendum with facts, evidence and economics clearly spelled out.

Even now, after well over a year since the referendum, not one, not even one tory politician has been able to deliver any meaningful explanation of how and when the people of the UK might benefit from secession. All we have ever had is waffle, regurgitated time and time again, bereft of any information and that has trickled down to the tory faithful, even in this forum - no answers about the how or the when.

Those of us who support the EU project and wish for our country to remain in the EU and hopefully in a USofE in the future have asked on many occasions for the wafflers in this thread to describe the 'Brexit' benefits they claim await us - they have all taken their lead from the inbred tory MPs and offered nothing other than the same waffling rhetoric.

In 1982, Thatcher's government was collapsing and it looked clear to all the political pundits that Labour would easily win the next election. That all changed thanks to the Argentinians! The only hope I can see for May and her appalling cabinet is if something akin to the Falklands war should present itself before 2019. In that regard, I am slightly worried about the Spanish situation right now.

Tom

 

[Woosh]

My gut feeling now is that leading tory politicians don't want to take responsibility for the execution of a hard 'Brexit' or tumbling out of the EU with no deal at all so they might wish to offload that responsibility to the nation via another referendum but this time, a referendum with facts, evidence and economics clearly spelled out.

The majority of tory membership still support hard brexit.
I don't think the tories are going to call a second referendum, that will certainly split their party from top to bottom and make them unelectable for years to come.

 

[flecc]

Weird?

I said:

Would have made much more sense to have simply given the monies involved directly to them in Poland, far better investment. One (way), I suggest, that would have been more likely to have (succeeded, had it) been made by a businessman (rather) than any politician, or banker come to that.

To pick and choose is surely more weird? I clearly suggested one way in which it would have been better directed? I might just have written it differently if done a second time but even so, clear enough.

But I disagreed with your fundamental of giving money directly to anyone in Poland, and still do, for the reasons previously stated.
.

 

[oldtom]

This thread is heading towards 22,000 posts. I would dearly like one of the fantasists who see some benefits for British people after secession to provide some detail as I have asked on more than one occasion previously.

I really don't want to read a further rendition of the waffle previously produced so if anyone from the anti-EU camp has anything real which might persuade those of us who like being part of the EU to reconsider, now's your chance.

Simply tell us how we will benefit and when we will benefit. That can't be too difficult for you given how strenuously you argue against the EU - you must have something better that you can promise us, otherwise what is the point?

Tom

 

[Woosh]

otherwise what is the point?

.
the point is we don't want a US of E.
It's that simple.

 

[Danidl]

The money ended up back in Poland in any event and cost the Poles nothing. I assume that there is more to this than a couple of property developers getting loans from German banks - who pays in the end? I thought, naively perhaps, that the people that loaned money exercised due diligence - obviously not and not with just this example of course!

Yes but the houses got built for Irish people in Ireland. The road network has been upgraded, The Poles, and Irish workers got paid, the German banks got paid, everything was fine up until 2006, when some developers in a fit of hubris, believed the gravy train would never end starting outbidding each other and buying more and more expensive property portfolios, in London, New York . Property prices for scraps of land in Dublin where the highest anywhere, and that bubble eventually collapsed. The proximate cause was the us sub prime crisis, but the underlying cause was building houses in excess of requirements, many in locations where there was no rational demand.
Who lost you ask... We the Irish people. The German banks got paid despite not excercising
due diligence , Ireland got an overdraft from the ECB, and will be paying on this for decades.

Who also lost.. our hospital patients, due to lack of investment,
our young people, who basically lost a decade of gainful employment,
our architects and builders, electricians , plumbers who lost businesses and are now in Dubai, Sydney, Capetown, London, paying off their debts ,
our schools and colleges such saw staff numbers reduced by 30%, and rising student numbers,

. But we did as a nation hold the country together, there were no riots, no lynchings and the rule of law held.

Now things are in major recovery, very low unemployment... National budgets being balanced... And then just as we are getting up these amadans ( look it up ) next door inflict Brexit !!!

 

[Woosh]

everything was fine up until 2006, when some developers in a fit of hubris, believed the gravy train would never end starting outbidding each other and buying more and more expensive property portfolios, in London, New York . Property prices for scraps of land in Dublin where the highest anywhere, and that bubble eventually collapsed. The proximate cause was the us sub prime crisis, but the underlying cause was building houses in excess of requirements, many in locations where there was no rational demand.

The builders have gone under but I think the problem was a classic bubble of overvaluation of assets.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The majority of tory membership still support hard brexit.
I don't think the tories are going to call a second referendum, that will certainly split their party from top to bottom and make them unelectable for years to come.

But the majority of the Tory MP's are still largely Remain,they just need a break from the shackles of the Tory bastards and they would love to vote for a second referendum.
I suspect that the hard right are on the retreat,sacking Boris will bring this all out in the open,May,Hammond and Rudd will fight against Rees-Mogg,IDS,Boris and Fox. When she sacks Boris all hell will break loose in the Tory Party but that will effectively be the end of Brexit.
When Boris gets the push,the right will register a vote of no confidence against May,the party as a whole will vote to keep her and then she will feel she can call a second referendum and the Tory party will be back to the same status-quo as the situation prior to the first referendum,May will be correct 'nothing has changed'
How soon,next week?
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Yes but the houses got built for Irish people in Ireland. The road network has been upgraded, The Poles, and Irish workers got paid, the German banks got paid, everything was fine up until 2006, when some developers in a fit of hubris, believed the gravy train would never end starting outbidding each other and buying more and more expensive property portfolios, in London, New York . Property prices for scraps of land in Dublin where the highest anywhere, and that bubble eventually collapsed. The proximate cause was the us sub prime crisis, but the underlying cause was building houses in excess of requirements, many in locations where there was no rational demand.
Who lost you ask... We the Irish people. The German banks got paid despite not excercising
due diligence , Ireland got an overdraft from the ECB, and will be paying on this for decades.

Who also lost.. our hospital patients, due to lack of investment,
our young people, who basically lost a decade of gainful employment,
our architects and builders, electricians , plumbers who lost businesses and are now in Dubai, Sydney, Capetown, London, paying off their debts ,
our schools and colleges such saw staff numbers reduced by 30%, and rising student numbers,

. But we did as a nation hold the country together, there were no riots, no lynchings and the rule of law held.

Now things are in major recovery, very low unemployment... National budgets being balanced... And then just as we are getting up these amadans ( look it up ) next door inflict Brexit !!!

Don't worry Brexit is not going to happen....if the Tories were 100 % aligned it would have been difficult but maybe possible,but the splits will soon be war inside the Tory cabinet and Davis won't have a clue what he is supposed to be achieving.
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

When Boris gets the push,the right will register a vote of no confidence against May,the party as a whole will vote to keep her and then she will feel she can call a second referendum

no they won't.
If TM picks a fight, the hard brexiters will force a leadership contest and if the remaining two candidates are TM and BJ, the membership will go for BJ..

 

[Kudoscycles]

Who is the future possible Irish pm ? We just got a new one, and he still has his learner plates on.?

Michael Martin

 

[Kudoscycles]

no they won't.
If TM picks a fight, the hard brexiters will force a leadership contest and if the remaining two candidates are TM and BJ, the membership will go for BJ..

Boris could only manage 29 votes when Cameron stood down ,that is why he dropped out of the leadership contest,leaving it to Leadsom v May....May had a landslide of votes....what has changed in the parliament that would make them support Boris?
KudosDave

 

[Danidl]

That is utter rubbish. You have a serious problem that distorts your opinions OG. Just examine IHT, CGT etc etc. Yes there are some who manage to avoid tax both legally and illegally but the vast majority of folk, wealthy and not so wealthy, have little intention of avoiding tax. (For last 10 years of my real working life I worked in Probate , calculating IHT on Estates) The amounts collected (40%) are staggering.
Saying rich avoid tax shows no understanding at all of what's happened in UK over last 40 years. All those Stately homes you despise are more than likely owned by National Trust now because of IHT.
One of aspects that always pleasantly surprised me was the feeling by nearly every group I worked for saw the taxes as their responsibility and had a duty to pay the amount required. No more. No less.
You don't seem to mind the taxes wasted on such as Barnier ,Junkers etc etc.
Perhaps you should apply the same standards and examine the background and almost fraudulent behaviour ( which I,ve mentioned before , yet you fail to actually look into the man) of Junker. Look how many millions ( billions) this none elected socialist has tucked away , collected from companies benefitting from the tax laws he introduced in his home country, which now has second highest GDP / capita in world..because of tax fiddling...You are shooting your feet again mentioning tax in UK and wanting a USE with Junkers in charge. His behaviour is a disgrace, yet you Flecc and Tom defend him. I don't understand how any so called socialist can want to be in an organisation that puts Junker at its head.
EU with Junker and socialism are a complete anachronism. Just research the man, its all available if you care to look.

A few points.
Junkers, whatever you may think about him has been elected, again and again...just like May and Johnson have been elected again and again.. you know these to be true so why produce these again and again... Artistic licence perhaps.
The really really wealthy remain really really wealthy by having no money. They have trust funds, into which the money goes and pays them , they have corporations where the money is held, and which owns the houses and aircraft and other toys and when desirable, they can arrange for favourable legislation. If you were successful as a probate agent, it was still the little people you targeted. The big money is well hidden.The tax havens are not an urban myth. Every so often they arrange for a tax amnesty so as to move it around.
Now whatever else, you are, you are not a fool, so you must know these things to be true.

 

[Woosh]

Boris could only manage 29 votes when Cameron stood down ,that is why he dropped out of the leadership contest,leaving it to Leadsom v May....May had a landslide of votes....what has changed in the parliament that would make them support Boris?
KudosDave

it's not the PCP that elects their leader, it's the CP 100,000 membership, one person, one vote and the majority of them support hard brexit.
TM would have no chance against BJ if it's up to their membership.
Now you see why Nick Clegg suggests remainers should join the CP to stop brexit.

 

[Kudoscycles]

it's not the PCP that elects their leader, it's the CP 100,000 membership, one person, one vote and the majority of them support hard brexit.
TM would have no chance against BJ if it's up to their membership.
Now you see why Nick Clegg suggests remainers should join the CP to stop brexit.

That is the voting method in the Labour Party but I don't think it is in the Tory Party,when Cameron stood down it was the MPs who voted between Leadsom and May.
Maybe someone who knows can set us right,I am not sure of the system.
I just don't see why anyone would want Boris except the small number of Tory right wingers. I have friends who are Tory membership who think TM is wonderful and Boris is an idiot,
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

That is the voting method in the Labour Party but I don't think it is in the Tory Party,when Cameron stood down it was the MPs who voted between Leadsom and May.
Maybe someone who knows can set us right,I am not sure of the system.
I just don't see why anyone would want Boris except the small number of Tory right wingers. I have friends who are Tory membership who think TM is wonderful and Boris is an idiot,
KudosDave

here are the rules:

If just one MP is nominated, they are automatically installed as party leader.
However, if multiple names are successfully added to the ballot paper, Tory MPs then vote using a first past the post system.
If there are more than three candidates the lowest polling name is removed and another ballot is held.
This continues until just two candidates remain. Those two nominees are then put to a ballot of the wider Conservative Party membership with the winner becoming the new Conservative leader.