Brexit, for once some facts.

[PeterL]

I still dont think we are leaving and I dont think Hammond thinks we are leaving,there are just too many obstacles to overcome.
Forget the 'will of the people bit',we are talking money,the EU wants £100 billion,which we dont have,the UK wants to pay nothing except the continuation of our normal payments.
If we crash out both sides lose lots of money.
There will come a point when sense will prevail,the EU will give us some of what we want provided we continue to give them money and May will say that the deal is now so good she recommends we stay.
KudosDave

Something like that perhaps... the devil is in the detail.

 

[PeterL]

Erm, you do realise the tories single handedly landed us in this mess by trying to neutralise its lunatic eutrophobic fringe?

Assume you mean by giving them, the people, the ability to vote?

I wonder how the other countries in the EU would vote given the same opportunity?

It is not for the Politicians to decide such big questions - that's why we had a Referendum

 

[Danidl]

I thought the speaker of the house should be neutral but Bercow's recent comments to Hansard would suggest otherwise.....
Commons Speaker says it is ‘opinion, rather than a constitutional fact’ that MPs must vote through Brexit because of referendum result'
Believe it or otherwise,he is telling them that they can make up their own minds,I think May and Corbyns whips think differently.
Seems like Bercow is a remainer.
KudosDave

Was he not just actually, doing his job. ? He speaks for parliament, and in your country parliament is supreme

 

[oldgroaner]

The hostility on here has been against anyone speaking remotely positive about leaving ( or voting Tory)
Perhaps you are trying to infer a link between xenophobia and leaving ? If you are are I disagree...if you aren't, you make a fair point.
Its a complete myth people voted leave for xenophobic reasons. Its utter nonsense spread by remainers to discredit leavers. Even Nick Clegg stated ( about the only sensible thing he,s ever said) and I quote." Nobody can have the vaguest reason why anyone voted as the did". Yes flecc, OG and Tom will come back and tell me why I and 17 million other people voted as they did, but fact is , nobody knows. It didn't ask for reasons on polling form.( Besides, it makes no difference now)
The whole world seems to becoming more polarised, which no matter how many times Tom and,OG justify insulting behaviour , this is a worrying trend.
To be fair I frequent 3 forums linked to activities I participate in, fortunately the intolerance and insult is way more prevalent on here than others and than in population at large...and before OG starts telling me that's something to do with my presence, perhaps posters should read posts before I appeared. There were threats of violence.( now removed with according gaps in posts)
The level of self righteousness assumed by a few remainers ( I wont generalise) is staggering.
Daniel makes excellent considered posts for remain. Tom and OG have not. They have both attempted to hijack the thread for their own political agendas. Tom wants a revolution to eradicate all wealthy, all tories, all royalty, all priviliged. OG just wants to patronise and put down everything, to what aim ? I have no idea.
I keep asking OG ( Tom never responds to my posts) exactly what he wants to happen next. His answer was some idealistic nonsense, involving change in our democratic system ....so I,ll ask him again, with the proviso..please keep it realistic..
OG..what actions and by whom and to what outcome do you want yo see next.. Not from a position pre last June but from the position we are in today.. May gets nothing but mocked by remainers but they offer neither an alternative or even a desire for an alternative ( Bevin has been dead a while now)
So...please stop patronising, insulting and tell us what realistic wishes you have ? We might then be able to have a worthwhile debate rather than this tennis match of insults.

Quite simply the only sensible course is for parliament to cancel brexit

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

I'm sure you would but you'd be wrong of course.

Let me refer you to this snip:

Add to that, many of us that voted out, sincerely believe that the EU is doomed anyway. Other than that the Vote to leave was a good cross-section of society with probably (Tom can correct me) more Labour voters, far more than either LB or Tory?

Arguably my opinion but, tell me, in a quiet measured voice, where I am wrong?

You misunderstand the motive of the greater mass of leave voters.
They want fairer government and were told the EU prevented them getting it.
Now they will find out to their dismay they have blundered in trusting their future to their real enemies.

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[Steb]

Assume you mean by giving them, the people, the ability to vote?

They have always had that. By giving them vast amounts of fake news, distortions, lies,as you know. By subverting parliamentary democracy. By manipulating a national referendum, holding a country hostage to try to resolve its internal struggle with a xenophobic right wing.

 

[Kudoscycles]

So, when the people, in a Referendum, with a clear question, for which the majority, say jump to the Politicians. They don't jump. Instead they then say how high - really? Reminds me of the cup of tea sketch, With sugar, without sugar, white or black, milk before or milk after, with a biscuit and on it goes... until someone has had enough.

Sorry you lost me in the tea...no they dont have to...they can say that they listened to the people and at that moment they can understand why the people voted. But having considered the matter and in light of a revised deal from the EU we,the government,have decided that it is in the best interests of the country to stay in the EU.
Dont forget May is the mistress of U-turns,its in her DNA.
The rest of the world are not exactly queuing up to give us trade deals,the USA is currently hostile to us (Bombardier).
I think most people would be pleased to hear the end of Brexit.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Was he not just actually, doing his job. ? He speaks for parliament, and in your country parliament is supreme

Yeh,except when it comes to Brexit.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

Assume you mean by giving them, the people, the ability to vote?

I wonder how the other countries in the EU would vote given the same opportunity?

It is not for the Politicians to decide such big questions - that's why we had a Referendum

What we actually got was a bunch of liars and a twisted press colluded to mislead the public and succeeded, gaining a result with unknowable and unplanned for consequences.

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[oldtom]

Add to that, many of us that voted out, sincerely believe that the EU is doomed anyway. Other than that the Vote to leave was a good cross-section of society with probably (Tom can correct me) more Labour voters, far more than either LB or Tory?

As you have stated that you are one who voted for secession, then threw in, perhaps as some form of justification for your choice, that you "sincerely believe the EU is doomed anyway", maybe you would like to divulge to those of us who cannot see any good whatsoever for British people should we exit the EU, exactly how and when we will see benefits.

No-one yet from the 'leave' camp has managed to produce any cogent answer to that question and it cannot be too much to ask, in my opinion. You seem to avoid that issue at every opportunity, preferring to criticise the critics of 'Brexit' so, given the title of this thread, please afford us of your reasoning.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Probably more wishful thinking. I accept your point, yet, we are where we are and would seem to be leaving the EU one way or another. The fact that it would be fair to say that the majority of the politicians would have voted to remain only to find themselves having to meet the wishes of the Referendum is no excuse, in my book, for playing silly games. They need to start working out how to make the best of it; not squabble, in the case of those Tories; deny it's ever going to happen, LD/Green; try to jump ship SNP; Labour, who knows what their game is? To use another metaphor surely the fact that someone falls over a cliff whilst collecting birds eggs, plainly wrong, but, catches hold of a branch on the way down doesn't mean we all stand at the top, cheer and generally tell him how stupid he was. Only to watch him fall before we realise that the branch he was holding undermines where we are standing and we all end up at the bottom of the canyon - with many still screaming obscenities on the way no doubt? Lemmings perhaps?

Add to that, many of us that voted out, sincerely believe that the EU is doomed anyway. Other than that the Vote to leave was a good cross-section of society with probably (Tom can correct me) more Labour voters, far more than either LB or Tory?

Note: I realise that it will be the over 60's that tip the balance here and given that their opportunities for a university education where far less than the kids of today - that makes them stupid - right?

So you are making that assertion?

 

[PeterL]

What we actually got was a bunch of liars and a twisted press colluded to mislead the public and succeeded, gaining a result with unknowable and unplanned for consequences.

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So what? Has anything changed? I assume not from your previous posts - it's always been this way. Why would people want to live here?

 

[PeterL]

So you are making that assertion?

No! I try not to talk to myself.

 

[PeterL]

As you have stated that you are one who voted for secession, then threw in, perhaps as some form of justification for your choice, that you "sincerely believe the EU is doomed anyway", maybe you would like to divulge to those of us who cannot see any good whatsoever for British people should we exit the EU, exactly how and when we will see benefits.

No-one yet from the 'leave' camp has managed to produce any cogent answer to that question and it cannot be too much to ask, in my opinion. You seem to avoid that issue at every opportunity, preferring to criticise the critics of 'Brexit' so, given the title of this thread, please afford us of your reasoning.

Tom

I don't see the point it's a bit like me reversing the question and asking you to explain to those would wanted to leave, why we should stay - pointless!

BREXIT - for once some facts... really?

 

[oldgroaner]

So what? Has anything changed? I assume not from your previous posts - it's always been this way. Why would people want to live here?

You seem to have done a "Davis" and wandered off topic.
People voted for Brexit in the vain hope of improving their lot.
It isn't going to is it? and absolutley the most optimistic view of all is from Davis and "It may not be so bad"
The public were made BIG promises of a land of Milk and Honey, more jobs and more for the NHS, and we get that?

Not good enough! not by a million miles! this is how you guarantee trouble with the population.
For crying out loud why does the Govenrment want to create such a situation?
Have they taken complete leave of their senses?

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't see the point it's a bit like me reversing the question and asking you to explain to those would wanted to leave, why we should stay - pointless!

BREXIT - for once some facts... really?

You really don't want any do you?

 

[anotherkiwi]

So what? Has anything changed? I assume not from your previous posts - it's always been this way. Why would people want to live here?

That is a question I asked myself when I was living there 40 odd years ago. The music was great but as soon as the good weather ended...

 

[PeterL]

You seem to have done a "Davis" and wandered off topic.
People voted for Brexit in the vain hope of improving their lot.
It isn't going to is it? and absolutley the most optimistic view of all is from Davis and "It may not be so bad"
The public were made BIG promises of a land of Milk and Honey, more jobs and more for the NHS, and we get that?

Not good enough! not by a million miles! this is how you guarantee trouble with the population.
For crying out loud why does the Govenrment want to create such a situation?
Have they taken complete leave of their senses?

'We' do that sometimes... a bit of peace and quiet never goes amiss up here in Scotland.

 

[PeterL]

That is a question I asked myself when I was living there 40 odd years ago. The music was great but as soon as the good weather ended...

What was it that attracted you to... where is it, France?

 

[Steb]

That is a question I asked myself when I was living there 40 odd years ago. The music was great but as soon as the good weather ended...

Yes, I vaguely like the liberal tradition, individualism of Anglo saxon culture, the angst, emptiness and flights into states of temporary insanity like brexit or trump I can do without