Bosch to the left of them, Bosch to the right....

[indalo]

It is a bit odd isn't it. I wonder if there, is / was / still is, something wrong with my bike? It simply doesn't do what people are describing. Pulling way is smooth with no apparent, "kicking in" of the power. The motor is definitely doing something because if I do the same with the power switched off, the pull away is just as smooth, but it feels like the bike is traversing deep mud.

It's a bit late to do anything about it now, I've lived with it for nearly 5 years.

Hi Tillson.

I have to confess that I found it odd that your experience seems to differ from mine in that way. Although your bike and mine have different power outputs and different batteries, the principle of their operation ought to be the same....I would have thought?

Generally, when I set off from home, I leave the power off and start in 4th gear. I then cycle manually until I feel leg fatigue begin to kick in at which point I select the lower of two power levels. With power on, I never need to start off in anything below 4th or 5th gear on reasonably level ground and the bike doesn't labour at all. On steep hills, generally 4th gear is still ok for pickaway although on very steep inclines, 3rd might be required. Rarely is 2nd gear ever required and I can't recall ever using 1st except to check that all 8 gears in the Nexus actually work.

From a standing start, there is most definitely very noticeable assistance with the slightest touch on a pedal and I can get off the line quicker than on my Cytronex which doesn't feed in the power till road speed is about 5 mph....then it flies! To be fair, the Cytronex only weighs about the same as the paintwork on the Gazelle.

Otherwise, phase-down occurs from about 12mph, power tailing off progressively till I'm on my own at about 15 or a little over, which I believe is in accord with the model.

My initial thought on your situation was that you were simply riding the machine in top gear with power on high but I'm sure you have tried various methods of riding with assistance. Certainly, with more powerful motors it is quite possible to ride using very few gears, such is the torque spread. I have actually employed that technique when testing ebikes and some are so easy, there's little exercise for one's legs unless the lowest power level is selected.

Indalo

 

[RobF]

really? so what throttle bike we talking about here.....pray tell and give us a laugh

Usual know-all, sneering attitude.

Learn some manners and then you might learn some other things.

 

[tillson]

Hello Indalo

I ride my bike almost exclusively in the lowest of the three power modes and always have done. For that reason, I tend to use the full range of gears available to me from the Alfine 8 speed hub, generally pulling away on level ground in 4th gear. There's more urgency to the getaway if I use a higher assist level, but no surge of power.

I'm not worried about any of this as the bike suits me perfectly (to the extent where I wonder if I would get along with the newer more powerful models), but I do find it strange that I am not getting the same experience as others with the same / similar equipment. If I ride it in 1st gear and high assist mode, the power delivery does seem to pulse in synchronisation with the pedal strokes, but no surge on pulling away from a standstill. Very odd.

A friend has an Ezee conversion kit on his bike and the rate at which that pulls away far exceeds my Panasonic.

 

[tillson]

Usual know-all, sneering attitude.

Learn some manners and then you might learn some other things.

Now now, lets all play together nicely. I'll switch your computers off if you don't.

 

[RobF]

Now now, lets all play together nicely. I'll switch your computers off if you don't.

OK, in the interests of forum harmony, I'll answer Eddie's question.

The throttle bike was a Fireblade.

 

[Kenny]

It is a bit odd isn't it. I wonder if there, is / was / still is, something wrong with my bike? It simply doesn't do what people are describing. Pulling way is smooth with no apparent, "kicking in" of the power. The motor is definitely doing something because if I do the same with the power switched off, the pull away is just as smooth, but it feels like the bike is traversing deep mud.

It's a bit late to do anything about it now, I've lived with it for nearly 5 years.

Agree with Tilson on this. I don't notice any great surge from a standstill on my 4 year old Pro Connect S.

I love the power delivery, very smooth and subtle. It is perfectly suited to my long distance leasure rides where I can just use a smidgeon of power to eek out the battery but still make the ride easier and more enjoyable.

A recent ride with my friend on his 300w PCS was a real eye opener. His bike was more powerful than mine on the lowest power setting, when mine was on the highest setting (x1.5). His manual states it is x 0.75 but it was definately stronger.

I much preferred the lower power of my older bike although the more powerful motor would come into it's own for a very weak rider.

Think I'll be hanging on to my bike unless they bring out some way of adjusting the power levels to suit your style of riding.

 

[103Alex1]

.... including my over 1000 watt one.

I trust that's duly registered with number plates and disc ?

 

[flecc]

It is a bit odd isn't it. I wonder if there, is / was / still is, something wrong with my bike? It simply doesn't do what people are describing. Pulling way is smooth with no apparent, "kicking in" of the power. The motor is definitely doing something because if I do the same with the power switched off, the pull away is just as smooth, but it feels like the bike is traversing deep mud.

It's a bit late to do anything about it now, I've lived with it for nearly 5 years.

It may be some insensitivity of the torque sensor. It works on minute low level variations in current resulting from magnetic eddies in an amorphous alloy sleeve, so some variation may be possible in particular matches of components in the assembly.

That could account for the odd few machines that are reported as reacting differently.

 

[flecc]

I trust that's duly registered with number plates and disc ?

No, its actually a legally accepted e-bike base, sold as 250 watts and amply ilustrating the silly situation that exists legally.

The current one has had it's output reduced by a third since it has a 20 amp controller in place of the 30 amp original that I have. The downside of my one is a 15 mile range on a 37 volt 10 Ah battery when fully used, 24.7 Wh per mile which is about double the average and three times the best!

 

[tillson]

I love the power delivery, very smooth and subtle. It is perfectly suited to my long distance leasure rides where I can just use a smidgeon of power to eek out the battery but still make the ride easier and more enjoyable.

I much preferred the lower power of my older bike although the more powerful motor would come into it's own for a very weak rider.

Think I'll be hanging on to my bike unless they bring out some way of adjusting the power levels to suit your style of riding.

My thoughts entirely. The newer more powerful bikes actually put me off to a great extent and I would view it as a retrograde step. I like putting in a decent amount of effort myself, but I can understand that this wont suit everyone's needs and that there is a requirement for more power.

 

[indalo]

My thoughts entirely. The newer more powerful bikes actually put me off to a great extent and I would view it as a retrograde step. I like putting in a decent amount of effort myself, but I can understand that this wont suit everyone's needs and that there is a requirement for more power.

Yes, I can empathise with that view to a degree. My car's sat-nav can direct me wherever I want to go but there are times when I know better and there are times when I want to ignore it and do things manually, regardless.

When it comes to cycling, I enjoy having the back-up of a motor but I really don't want a motor so powerful that I don't have to do very much at all. That kind of defeats the object. The elusive balance between power, economy, rideability, exercise, utility and enjoyment, while not entirely achievable in one machine is probably most closely matched by some of the Panasonic-powered bikes although Bosch has learned well.

I'm afraid I disregard those bikes which are to all intents and purposes mopeds as they bear little resemblance in practice to bicycles. It's true there may be a case which can be made for such machines but I think those should be viewed as invalid carriages rather than bikes. As for throttles, I really don't think we should be making any representations to anyone in support. The rest of the european continent seems to manage ok without throttles and there are specific machines available for those who insist such additions are necessary. Many mopeds and electric scooters are cheaper than some ebikes even when the costs of proper helmet, registration and insurance are included.

Sometimes I'm reminded by those people who insist illegal power and throttles are essential, of the people who drive gas-guzzling 4x4s who insist they need one because they tow a caravan. Well, I'm sorry but all typical caravans are easily towed by the most modest saloon or hatchback car today with only 2wd. In any event, most of those caravanners never venture anywhere that might require 4wd, specifying hard-standing pitches on booking sites, rather than grass any time there's rain forecast! They further justify their over-sized vehicles by claiming they get fuel returns of 40mpg....of course they do!

To get back to the point made by Kenny and Tillson, there will always be those for whom the legal power limit will not be enough. There will always be those who wish to insist that throttles are essential. I think both those groups, which I'd guess in many cases are one and the same, should be looking elsewhere for their transport rather than continually attempting to corrupt the legislation currently applicable, UK or European, to suit their own selfish needs. The vehicles they need already exist though the legislation may be a little more bothersome.

Indalo

 

[103Alex1]

No, its actually a legally accepted e-bike base, sold as 250 watts and amply ilustrating the silly situation that exists legally.

The current one has had it's output reduced by a third since it has a 20 amp controller in place of the 30 amp original that I have. The downside of my one is a 15 mile range on a 37 volt 10 Ah battery when fully used, 24.7 Wh per mile which is about double the average and three times the best!

I'm still completely and utterly bamboozled by all this - keep reading more threads to try to get to an understanding of what really is likely to give what I'm looking for in a 2nd bike (which might well include a 250W continuous output-rated motor with very high torque / max power output capability and a shtonker battery). Basically range + hill-climbing capability combined and ability to ride as a nippy bike unpowered = goal. Still haven't worked out where the optimal combo likely lies

 

[RobF]

I am a proper cyclist and I look down on him because he uses a battery.

I use a battery, but I look down on him because he uses a throttle.

I prefer to use a throttle to control my bike and I know my place.

 

[NRG]

I'm still completely and utterly bamboozled by all this - keep reading more threads to try to get to an understanding of what really is likely to give what I'm looking for in a 2nd bike (which might well include a 250W continuous output-rated motor with very high torque / max power output capability and a shtonker battery). Basically range + hill-climbing capability combined and ability to ride as a nippy bike unpowered = goal. Still haven't worked out where the optimal combo likely lies

Hub drive I take it? Look for the largest capacity 36v battery bike you can find (14Ah+) fitted with at least a 20amp controller...peak power after losses will be around 500w on hills.

 

[eddieo]

Bosch system measures 750 watt......can post a video if you want. And I guess that is why it can get my far from fit 17 stone up ANY hill I choose without worry....

still waiting for the reveal of this throttle machine of yours Rob..you cant be spouting off how wonderful it is without letting us compare

Tillson, you have 12 power settings so want to put more effort in just dial it down a bit and get more range..probably just as you do with present bike. Surely better to have the power there then not......

 

[tillson]

Tillson, you have 12 power settings so want to put more effort in just dial it down a bit and get more range..probably just as you do with present bike. Surely better to have the power there then not......

I'm sure that I would find one of the 12 power settings suitable. I suppose my problem is that I've not ridden other types of bike for any distance / duration, so only really know the old Panasonic system.

 

[eddieo]

When on holiday I dial it right down as have to wait for wife, she is far more fit but not that fast. I tend to ride in 3 so use effectively 4 modes, ECO, tour,sport. speed. Eco 1 is supposed to compensate for extra weight of Bosch system and even in Eco 3 bike easy to ride. On speed you feel like you are being pulled so I tend to ride in sport unless in a rush.....like anything you need to sort out what's right for you


New 2013 bike has different panel with less options and a few on German pedelec complaining....while others complained that Old one has to much choice..certainly proves its hard to please everyone.

 

[Blew it]

The Bosch drive has just three 'power' settings, the four cadence related 'modes' allow the rider to tailor the assistance to match their normal sustainable cadence. In the three lower modes, the assistance rolls off proportionally at a cadence of 40 rpm through to 70 rpm. In 'speed mode' the assistance rolls off at a cadence of 110 rpm, or until the maximum assisted road speed is reached... around 17 mph.

As you can see, those who like to spin the pedals quickly will enjoy the 'speed' mode'. Utility style riders will use one of the three lower modes. For instance, in 'tour' mode, the assistance rolls off at around 45-50 rpm, and around 70 rpm in 'sport' mode.

If a comparison with the 26v Panasonic 'Medium' 1:1 assist ratio is needed, then I suggest 'SPORT' mode, power level 3 on the Bosch system as being the nearest equivalent. On a regular 'easy' nineteen mile route, both systems returned a similar average consumtion figure of 11.2 watt-hours per mile using those settings.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

There will always be those who wish to insist that throttles are essential. I think both those groups, which I'd guess in many cases are one and the same, should be looking elsewhere for their transport rather than continually attempting to corrupt the legislation currently applicable, UK or European, to suit their own selfish needs. The vehicles they need already exist though the legislation may be a little more bothersome.

Indalo

A throttle is no more essential than is an electric bike. Both are nice to have if you want them. The same with power: You don't need to use it all the time. If you have a lot of power, you can always turn it down when you don't need it, but if you don't have it, you can't turn it up.

Not everybody is blessed like you being able to pedal with little help from the motor, many of us for whatever reasons are not able to use a bike with insufficient power, which is why we previously had to give up the cycling that we previously enjoyed. Time for you to get your head out of the sand and be a little more empathetic to other peoples needs so that more people can enjoy riding their electric bikes of choice.
Indeed it's you that is the selfish one by trying to make everyone else conform to your wishes.

 

[Old_Dave]

empathetic

Good word