Bosch cx motor failed again 4th

[mucksmuff]

Hi everyone just after your opinions on this :
I bought a 2017 Cube Stereo Hybrid team action in November 2017 new still under warranty .In that time i've had four motors in that , bike shop and bosch been good and warrantied the motors but motor no 4 has just failed today and i'm sick to death of the bike now . Well not the bike just the bosch system , does anyone know what my rights are can i ask for a exchange of bike with a different motor brose shimano ? Or just ask for a refund
Cheers, Mark.

 

[soundwave]

why are they failing in the first place same problem or all different, and what sort of riding are you doing and in what conditions?

my motor is 5 years old and used with a dongle and not had any problems so far so you are very unlucky to be on a 4th motor in warranty.

 

[mucksmuff]

Hi soundwave they all failed with error code 500 internal motor fault all i can think it is is the riding i do i live in the Lakes so it does get riden hard, not nice smooth trail centers.

 

[soundwave]

well if you are braking the bosch motors then you wont have much luck with any of the others but error 500 could be anything, i take it there is no damage to the motors casing or riding in heavy rain or cleaning it with a pressure washer.

i would get hold of the dealer and ask them to ask bosch what it is that is failing in the motors as they do a full report back at the factory for warranty returns.

also how many miles did each motor do b4 they failed?

 

[EddiePJ]

Just out of interest, has the dealer carried out a diagnostic on the battery?

 

[Andy McNish]

Hi soundwave they all failed with error code 500 internal motor fault all i can think it is is the riding i do i live in the Lakes so it does get riden hard, not nice smooth trail centers.

Ah. Stop riding them through lakes then. They don't like water

Seriously four motors failing so quickly is almost unheard of. People on here have 10k+ use out of one CX motor and they have a pretty good reputation for being bombproof unless you get water in them.

You must be incredibly unlucky, thrash them so hard you are breaking the casing or be using a powerwasher/submerging the thing for this to be happening so often...

 

[mucksmuff]

well if you are braking the bosch motors then you wont have much luck with any of the others but error 500 could be anything, i take it there is no damage to the motors casing or riding in heavy rain or cleaning it with a pressure washer.

i would get hold of the dealer and ask them to ask bosch what it is that is failing in the motors as they do a full report back at the factory for warranty returns.

also how many miles did each motor do b4 they failed?

Hi soundwave no external damage to the casings and never power washed does get ridden in the rain but no wading or submerging of motor, I've asked for feedback on why they failed ,but no explanation why just told internal fault, maybe the pcb is getting damaged with the vibrations of riding in the Lakes.

 

[mucksmuff]

Just out of interest, has the dealer carried out a diagnostic on the battery?

Hi EddiePJ is the battery no checked when they plug it into the diagnostic machine .

 

[soundwave]

well if you are some how cracking the pcb inside the motor? there is not much you can do than change ur riding style as that is 1 of the only things that cant be fixed buy a 3rd party so will need new motor when ur out of warranty and atm there 400 ish second hand or 700 new.

the bike sus is well specked so not much can be done there but i cant see how you are destroying motors so easy as you are the only one so far to have had this sort of problem.

now as the dealer has had more than 2 times to fix it you could reject the bike under trading standards rules as not fit for purpose but as it is i dont think you will have much luck with any make mid drive motor until you can find out why they have all failed in the first place.

maybe the dealer will change there tune and get answers from bosch when faced with a full refund

 

[mucksmuff]

well if you are some how cracking the pcb inside the motor? there is not much you can do than change ur riding style as that is 1 of the only things that cant be fixed buy a 3rd party so will need new motor when ur out of warranty and atm there 400 ish second hand or 700 new.

the bike sus is well specked so not much can be done there but i cant see how you are destroying motors so easy as you are the only one so far to have had this sort of problem.

now as the dealer has had more than 2 times to fix it you could reject the bike under trading standards rules as not fit for purpose but as it is i dont think you will have much luck with any make mid drive motor until you can find out why they have all failed in the first place.

maybe the dealer will change there tune and get answers from bosch when faced with a full refund

Hi soundwave only assuming the pcb is been damaged as that looks the weak point inside the motor, the motors will never get out of warranty as each new motor is given a new 2 year warranty, which is one reason i stuck with it, done some searching and found this post #10 DJR
https://electricbikereview.com/forum/threads/known-issues-problems-with-bosch-products-help-solutions-fixes.13098/#post-124551

Hes on his 5th motor in a year :-(

 

[soundwave]

well if you are not having bearings fail which is the first thing to go it could be anything unless you open the motor but then you will void the warranty.

if you dont mind getting the motors swapped out then keep killing them till bosch fix it as you will be costing them a fortune lol

 

[mucksmuff]

Turns out its not the motor this time its battery and lead that had the problem.

 

[EddiePJ]

Good result.

 

[Tamas Modis]

Water inside the motor or connectors. Chain degreaser. High pressure washer at the petrol station. These are the enemies. I always use sponge with water and only a light washing is needed. Chain washing with warm water and then waxing with electric heat gun instead of any oil or degreaser.

 

[Bearing Man]

Just for info, I have had 4 Bosch motors in from North Wales and the lakes this week and they all had code 500. All were suffering from water ingress.
None of the owners pressure washed their bikes and yet they had the same issue and here is what happens:
It only takes a very small quantity of water getting into a bearing to start a sequence of events that quickly conspire to wreck the motor.
Any water getting into a bearing will rust the internal ball bearings to the bearing race (the track that the balls run on). As soon as this happens, it is the beginning of the end.
The rust corrodes pits and lands into the ball bearings and the races and this starts to wear the balls down, this process is relatively slow (unless the wet weather adds a little more water each ride) The balls wear down to the point where the seals can't contact with their seat around the bearing anymore and a gap starts to open up.
Now water, dirt and debris can enter the bearing and start to rapidly destroy it. This increases the wear of the balls rapidly and the gap between the seal and the bearing race gets even larger. Now a large puddle, gentle hose, any water will just poor into the motor. Once the motor is shaken around in the trail, the water droplets cover the circuit board and code 500 is immanent!
The photos below were taken in my workshop over the last few days alone! But don't despair, it's not only Bosch. The first three photos are Bosch, then Brose, Yamaha PW-X and Impulse II.
Please remember, if you have a Bosch Gen 2 motor, check out the MudStop and right-hand crankshaft bearing seal at https://www.performancelinebearings.com
Also code 500 from water is mostly fixable, you can send your motor to us and we will wash (not with water) clean, dry and treat the circuit board and try to save all critical bearing surfaces i.e. crankshaft and freewheel clutch shaft, before corrosion causes irreparable damage.

 

[TobyAnscombe]

Interesting. I’m just coming up to 1,000 km on my Cube Acid Hybrid and other than swapping out to a larger front sprocket have done zero maintenance....

I was thinking that I’m probably due a service - @Bearing Man have you ever written a post on proactive maintenance and what to listen/check for?

 

[Bearing Man]

Interesting. I’m just coming up to 1,000 km on my Cube Acid Hybrid and other than swapping out to a larger front sprocket have done zero maintenance....

I was thinking that I’m probably due a service - @Bearing Man have you ever written a post on proactive maintenance and what to listen/check for?

Most eBike motors are not designed to be serviced or maintained. Yamaha, Impulse and Panasonic do like a bit of fresh grease every 1,500 miles or so, but Bosch, Brose, Shimano etc. have sealed ball bearings that should be good for the life of the motor.
As we all know though, if you play with them in the mud or dust or sand or water, they don't like it!

The Bosch Performance Line and Performance Line CX, you can fit the MudStop and extra seal as I have already mentioned. But that's about it! If we overhaul or repair a motor, we may add quite a few little touches, like packing the outer bearings with water resistant grease, or adding a very "tacky" grease between the bearing and the motor housing before assembly (this is where water can sit and slowly seap into the bearing), or fitting a better or more elaborate seal within the motor etc.)

The absolute best thing you can do, is get to know your motor. Listen to it. Is it noisy or getting noisier? Slip the chain off the front sprocket and turn the pedals by hand (you can't normally feel too much through your feet and when your sat on the bike you ears are a long way from your motor), is there play in the crankshaft? does the motor sound or feel rough when rotating the crank arms forwards or backwards? (at this point a lot of you will probably also discover your pedal bearings need some attention too!). Does the crank rotate freely both forwards and backwards?

The problem with most motor failures (bearing failures) is they slowly get worse, you tend not to notice things getting slowly worse, bit like jumping on a new bike and it feels quiet and tight and smooth. (Your bike would probably feel like that if you renewed all the bearings in it and re-greased everything).

So, if your motor feels or sounds anything other than a smooth quiet machine, get it looked at.
The biggest killer for all these motors is to "just keep riding it", what could have been a £10 bearing is now a £150 crankshaft and a full overhaul.

A few more pictures of what I usually see. (I have hundreds of pictures like these!)

 

[TobyAnscombe]

Thanks Paul!

 

[E-Wheels]

Just for info, I have had 4 Bosch motors in from North Wales and the lakes this week and they all had code 500. All were suffering from water ingress.
None of the owners pressure washed their bikes and yet they had the same issue and here is what happens:
It only takes a very small quantity of water getting into a bearing to start a sequence of events that quickly conspire to wreck the motor.
Any water getting into a bearing will rust the internal ball bearings to the bearing race (the track that the balls run on). As soon as this happens, it is the beginning of the end.
The rust corrodes pits and lands into the ball bearings and the races and this starts to wear the balls down, this process is relatively slow (unless the wet weather adds a little more water each ride) The balls wear down to the point where the seals can't contact with their seat around the bearing anymore and a gap starts to open up.
Now water, dirt and debris can enter the bearing and start to rapidly destroy it. This increases the wear of the balls rapidly and the gap between the seal and the bearing race gets even larger. Now a large puddle, gentle hose, any water will just poor into the motor. Once the motor is shaken around in the trail, the water droplets cover the circuit board and code 500 is immanent!
The photos below were taken in my workshop over the last few days alone! But don't despair, it's not only Bosch. The first three photos are Bosch, then Brose, Yamaha PW-X and Impulse II.
Please remember, if you have a Bosch Gen 2 motor, check out the MudStop and right-hand crankshaft bearing seal at https://www.performancelinebearings.com
Also code 500 from water is mostly fixable, you can send your motor to us and we will wash (not with water) clean, dry and treat the circuit board and try to save all critical bearing surfaces i.e. crankshaft and freewheel clutch shaft, before corrosion causes irreparable damage.

Most eBike motors are not designed to be serviced or maintained. Yamaha, Impulse and Panasonic do like a bit of fresh grease every 1,500 miles or so, but Bosch, Brose, Shimano etc. have sealed ball bearings that should be good for the life of the motor.
As we all know though, if you play with them in the mud or dust or sand or water, they don't like it!

The Bosch Performance Line and Performance Line CX, you can fit the MudStop and extra seal as I have already mentioned. But that's about it! If we overhaul or repair a motor, we may add quite a few little touches, like packing the outer bearings with water resistant grease, or adding a very "tacky" grease between the bearing and the motor housing before assembly (this is where water can sit and slowly seap into the bearing), or fitting a better or more elaborate seal within the motor etc.)

The absolute best thing you can do, is get to know your motor. Listen to it. Is it noisy or getting noisier? Slip the chain off the front sprocket and turn the pedals by hand (you can't normally feel too much through your feet and when your sat on the bike you ears are a long way from your motor), is there play in the crankshaft? does the motor sound or feel rough when rotating the crank arms forwards or backwards? (at this point a lot of you will probably also discover your pedal bearings need some attention too!). Does the crank rotate freely both forwards and backwards?

The problem with most motor failures (bearing failures) is they slowly get worse, you tend not to notice things getting slowly worse, bit like jumping on a new bike and it feels quiet and tight and smooth. (Your bike would probably feel like that if you renewed all the bearings in it and re-greased everything).

So, if your motor feels or sounds anything other than a smooth quiet machine, get it looked at.
The biggest killer for all these motors is to "just keep riding it", what could have been a £10 bearing is now a £150 crankshaft and a full overhaul.

A few more pictures of what I usually see. (I have hundreds of pictures like these!)

Is the seal arrangement on the Gen4 CX any better in keeping the water out

 

[soundwave]

this is my 5 year old motor not a drop of water in sight.

if you keep the bearings covered and greased up you wont have a problem but you cant constantly ride through swamps as it will find a way in