Bosch bearings

[nashdm2]

Exactly, so, if that is the case, there is the issue. Simple.

 

[JohnCade]

But that's not the way the Sale of Goods Act works, much of which is written from the point of view of protecting the consumer from the dealer trying to pass the buck to the manufacturer.

I know it is, but it has been superseded in practise with most consumer durables. If I buy a coat which goes at the seams within a short time I go back to the shop and will not be put off by them trying to pass the buck. If I buy a Sony TV I go over the shop's head to Sony direct. Because it's easier for me to pick up the phone and get them to send someone out rather than bugger about with sales people. Sony will do that as will any reputable company.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I think the answer has been given and is the core of the problem. The dealer takes on responsibility for warranty issues. There is no arrangement in place as there is in most mature market segments where dealers are reimbursed centrally for the work they do.

If you've got impression I'm sorry. Its very much dealt with on a case by case basis. If its a simple part replacement then its generally not worth the dealer claiming for their labour time.

But if its a problem that takes time, then we (and I'm sure other brands are the same from experience) have systems in place to credit the dealer for the labour work on any given problem.

 

[JohnCade]

Two cases are now being mentioned dealer going bust or changing brand,the changing brand does not relieve the dealer of his obligations he entered a contract at the time of sale and that still stands,if he goes bust thats different.

There was a thread here a week ago where it was said that a dealer stopped selling a brand and the customer was left in the lurch. The dealer had no relationship with the manufacturer anymore so couldn't get spares if he wanted to.

Yes in law the contract is with the dealer. But is the customer supposed to sue him? Trading standards can help a bit but are understaffed and will not fight an individual case. So in practise the customer can find himself stuffed irrespective of how the law is supposed to work in theory.

 

[JohnCade]

If you've got impression I'm sorry. Its very much dealt with on a case by case basis. If its a simple part replacement then its generally not worth the dealer claiming for their labour time.

But if its a problem that takes time, then we (and I'm sure other brands are the same from experience) have systems in place to credit the dealer for the labour work on any given problem.

But I believe that these arrangements are ad hoc and voluntary aren't they? To cover dealers who have gone bust and such like?

If a customer has simply moved a long way away or abroad, there are no standard arrangement in place as there are in for instance the case of KTM motorcycles or Bosch drills and the like.

I know I was told by Derby Cycle that if I moved abroad and took my bike with me I would have to send it back to the country and dealer I bought it from if it had a problem with it. They also said they would have no dealings with me direct to facilitate a repair with a local dealer. I think that's pretty standard practice in the industry.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

There lots of confusion in this thread, discussing things and wires are getting crossed.

But I believe that these arrangements are ad hoc and voluntary aren't they? To cover dealers who have gone bust and such like?

No. You seem to be confusing a number of different issues. If a customer has a warranty item and they take it back to the dealer they bought it from, us and other brands will cover the labour cost of that dealer doing the work. Which is what the orginal question asked:

The question I would like answered is as follows: If your bike develops an issue, you take it back to your dealer. If the repair is a warranty item, the dealer will get the part from the manufacturer I suppose?. BUT, does the dealer then get paid for his time to do the repair from the manufacturer (like in the car industry) or, does the dealer have to "absorb" the cost of his time himself? Col, I guess you know the answer to this?

So I hope that clears up Nashdm2's question.

Your point....

If a customer has simply moved a long way away or abroad, there are no standard arrangement in place as there are in for instance the case of KTM motorcycles or Bosch drills and the like.

This is a different point and a different answer.

This is a bit more adhock. Its about relationships, and customer care. So generally if someone calls us with a genuine problem and a reason why they can't deal with the dealer they bought the bike from, we will of course help them, and we have done.

I know I was told by Derby Cycle that if I moved abroad and took my bike with me I would have to send it back to the country and dealer I bought it from if it had a problem with it. They also said they would have no dealings with me direct to facilitate a repair with a local dealer. I think that's pretty standard practice in the industry.

Thats how they operate, I can't comment on that. But every company has to have a policy. Ours is the same, we don't deal with the public, and thats very standard in the bike industry, not just eBikes. However we have in the past dealt with the public if there is a good reason.

Hope that helps.

 

[trex]

isn't it true that the warranty is issued by the brand? if so, then is the brand ultimately liable to cover repairs if the dealer fails to honour the warranty (eg unsatisfactory repairs)? I know of a case where extended warranty was sold with the goods, the dealer subsequently went bust, the insurance company that issued the policy paid up the claim.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

isn't it true that the warranty is issued by the brand? if so, then is the brand ultimately liable to cover repairs if the dealer fails to honour the warranty (eg unsatisfactory repairs)?

Why would a dealer refuse to honour the warranty? If the parts and labour are covered by the brand (which if its a genuine warranty they will be) there is no reason to honour it.

I know of a case where extended warranty was sold with the goods, the dealer subsequently went bust, the insurance company that issued the policy paid up the claim.

This is a totally separate point, but yes if a dealer goes bust, the customer still has lots of rights. And I don't think any brands of any product would seek to avoid supporting the end consumer just because a dealer had gone bust.

 

[JohnCade]

There lots of confusion in this thread, discussing things and wires are getting crossed.



Hope that helps.

Lots of things have been thrown into this thread. But the point I and others have been making and which you are not addressing is the difficulty of getting warranty issues sorted if you no longer live nearby the dealer you bought it from. Unlike most comparable products.

As you imply it seems to be a hangover from the bike industry. But bikes are not quite the same, and maybe if e bikes are to become more popular as a means of commuting, and are to be relied on, the industry should become a little less backward and try to get away from its bicycle roots in warranty issues?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

have you had a specific problem in the past, that we can perhaps discuss? or is your concern hypothetical?

I've been working in the bike industry for 20 years in a variety of roles and whilst I can see the frustrations with some parts of it, it has evolved to be the way it is for a number of reasons. The main frustration is the time it takes to get replacement parts from some suppliers, and this wouldn't change if you dealt with your dealer or the component brand direct.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

My collegue comes from many years experience in the motor trade (a bit of culture change when you move to the bicycle industry) and I do not agree that people should have to wait months for parts. If we truly want to deliver a step change by getting more people on their bike on a daily basis then this needs to change. If we accept the current situation things will never change.

For example we have been waiting nearly 2 months for a Nexus 7 hub. We did not expect the customer to wait so when the bike came in we switched the wheels off another new bike. If we had not done this the customer would still be waiting.

The best company we have dealt with for service is Reise and Muller, we had a problem with a NuVinci hub and were sent a new wheel in little over a week. That is what I call service.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

For example we have been waiting nearly 2 months for a Nexus 7 hub. We did not expect the customer to wait so when the bike came in we switched the wheels off another new bike. If we had not done this the customer would still be waiting.

Madison who look after Shimano are one of the best companies in the cycle industry and Shimano is the biggest brand in cycling.

They normally sort issues out very quickly. They are certainly excepted as the bench mark others in the cycle industry are aiming for.

Its very unusual that you've been made to wait.

But also in practice, swapping out the hub to keep the customer riding is what Shimano would expect you to do as a dealer. Its that sort of service they are essentially paying you to offer. If you don't offer service like this there is no need for you in the supply chain. They might as well sell direct.

I don't work for Madison, so I can't comment on that case, but certainly everything we've ever done with them has been amazing service. Its one of the reasons we're so happy that pretty much all KTMs are shimano equipped.

 

[Gubbins]

have you had a specific problem in the past, that we can perhaps discuss? or is your concern hypothetical?

I've been working in the bike industry for 20 years in a variety of roles and whilst I can see the frustrations with some parts of it, it has evolved to be the way it is for a number of reasons. The main frustration is the time it takes to get replacement parts from some suppliers, and this wouldn't change if you dealt with your dealer or the component brand direct.

I have had a warranty issue with the Bosch motor, having bought from LBS. LBS were out of their depth and couldn't get any support from the manufacturers. In the end problem was sorted by Martin at my expense, but more of a gesture of good will from him.I raised the issue with the bike manufacturer (Scott) who became involved assuring me this situation wont arise in the future. At this point LBS is still selling e bikes and have had to resort to stripping a spare Bosch motor to see how it works because they cant, or dont seem able to get any help from Bosch. But with regard to the BB, Probable because I use mine in dusty and muddy conditions, normal BB's only last about a year, so the question about the repair with or without warranty is of interest.

 

[Martin@e-bikeshop]

I have had a warranty issue with the Bosch motor, having bought from LBS. LBS were out of their depth and couldn't get any support from the manufacturers. In the end problem was sorted by Martin at my expense, but more of a gesture of good will from him.I raised the issue with the bike manufacturer (Scott) who became involved assuring me this situation wont arise in the future.

& herein lies a problem. I did help out Phill. Shortly after I became inundated with calls from other LBSs who wanted advice & also some who expected me to fix their warranty problems! In fact Scott actually told their dealer base to contact me for any warranty issues arising with Scott eBikes. I told Scott to support their customers if they are to be selling Bosch eBikes, not just pass the buck, in responsive I was told that my time would be paid for... Not the point.

Whilst it goes against my nature I had to quickly get tougher unless my workshop guys would be spending all their time fixing other dealer's warranty claims. The risk is that my own customers might suffer, something I am not prepared to happen.

I made the decision when I started selling e-bikes to invest my own money & time in getting the proper training, equipment & employing suitably qualified staff in order to give a proper service to my customers, not operate as a drop in centre or phone support service to other LBS's & their customers!

Addressing a point above, occasionally we can claim for labour from the manufacturers however it's rarely worthwhile & rather than have the bike sitting there waiting for a repairs authorisation I prefer to get my customer's bike fixed & get them back on the road as soon as possible.

Regards
Martin

 

[Gubbins]

& herein lies a problem. I did help out Phill. Shortly after I became inundated with calls from other LBSs who wanted advice & also some who expected me to fix their warranty problems!

Whilst it goes against my nature I had to quickly get tougher unless my workshop guys would be spending all their time fixing other dealer's warranty claims. The risk is that my own customers might suffer, something I am not prepared to happen.

I made the decision when I started selling e-bikes to invest my own money & time in getting the proper training, equipment & employing suitably qualified staff in order to give a proper service to my customers, not operate as a drop in centre or phone support service to other LBS's & their customers!

Addressing a point above, occasionally we can claim for labour from the manufacturers however it's rarely worthwhile & rather than have the bike sitting there waiting for a repairs authorisation I prefer to get my customer's bike fixed & get them back on the road as soon as possible.

Regards
Martin

And although my issues with Lbs have been resolved, any future purchase will be on line from Martin's bike shop.

 

[Martin@e-bikeshop]

And although my issues with Lbs have been resolved, any future purchase will be on line from Martin's bike shop.

Exactly the reason I concentrate my time / service on our existing client base.

Thanks Phill

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

Col the point I was making is I do not believe we or any other dealer shoud have to do this. Waiting 4 months is not acceptable (apparently they will have the hub in September). Essentially four months when we are not able to sell the bike.

Also agree very much with Martin.

 

[flecc]

My collegue comes from many years experience in the motor trade (a bit of culture change when you move to the bicycle industry)

For example we have been waiting nearly 2 months for a Nexus 7 hub.

Being ex-motor industry I know only too well the difference, but a factor in that very large scale market is that spares are an extremely significant part of the income of both the manufacturers and the dealers. Build a car from the spares and it will cost at least four or five times the list price of the car! With profits like that of course they make sure the spares are there to sell.

The delay you mention above is commonplace with very large manufacturers who program their production to match orders placed in advance, as Shimano do. They program in a needs-forecast proportion for spares, but if they are used at a higher rate than expectation, the delays happen. Trying to re-program for such unexpected occurrences in very large organisations can be like trying to quickly turn a supertanker.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Col the point I was making is I do not believe we or any other dealer shoud have to do this. Waiting 4 months is not acceptable (apparently they will have the hub in September). Essentially four months when we are not able to sell the bike.

Also agree very much with Martin.

There is a responsibility right though out the supply chain to hold stock. But its impossible for everyone at every stage in the supply chain to have every product in stock in every size and colour at all times. So there will always be delays, or massively increased costs for everyone. I sympathise with your problem with this hub, but I would suggest that you've done what a good dealer should do and keep your customer on road. This will mean your customer is happy and recommends you and your business will grow as a result. As a dealer investing in stock and having a demo bike or two that you can lend to customers should a supplier be out of stock of a part is a great selling tool and as Martin is finding a good business model.

and now in a shock move for the world of internet forums, I'm actually going to go back to the first post, and provide some answers.

The bottom bracket on my Bosch motor has developed a lot of play on the drive side. Are these user or dealer serviceable? or is the only option available having to send it back to Bosch for repair?

I understand that a bottom bracket on a normal bicycle is not covered by a warranty, worn bearings are not considered to be a fault, just normal serviceable parts. I'm concerned that wear in the bottom bracket of the Bosch could also lead to damage occurring to other parts in the housing.

Has anyone any experience of changing the bottom bracket bearings on a Bosch motor?

First point from Bosch. If you use a dongle or in any way tune your motor you immediately invalidate your warranty. They have stated this very clearly to us in an email today, and highlighted it on their website.

http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/company/faq_company/faq.html

Secondly Bosch do state that the drive unit can't be dissembled, so in a case like this its a straight replacement of the whole drive thats needed.

Hope that clears up the initial questions on this thread.

 

[Gubbins]

There is a responsibility right though out the supply chain to hold stock. But its impossible for everyone at every stage in the supply chain to have every product in stock in every size and colour at all times. So there will always be delays, or massively increased costs for everyone. I sympathise with your problem with this hub, but I would suggest that you've done what a good dealer should do and keep your customer on road. This will mean your customer is happy and recommends you and your business will grow as a result. As a dealer investing in stock and having a demo bike or two that you can lend to customers should a supplier be out of stock of a part is a great selling tool and as Martin is finding a good business model.

and now in a shock move for the world of internet forums, I'm actually going to go back to the first post, and provide some answers.



First point from Bosch. If you use a dongle or in any way tune your motor you immediately invalidate your warranty. They have stated this very clearly to us in an email today, and highlighted it on their website.

http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/company/faq_company/faq.html

Secondly Bosch do state that the drive unit can't be dissembled, so in a case like this its a straight replacement of the whole drive thats needed.

Hope that clears up the initial questions on this thread.

Expensive for a bb failure if out of warranty....