Bike Purchase Advice - 22 Mile (one way) Commute

[Powerbikes]

There is a big and noticeable difference between branded and generic Chinese imports. It's the same across many industries. From e-bikes to i-phones.
Buy something that has been made to the specifications of a company then the quality is high. (So long as it has been specified by said company)
Buy something that is a copy or a cheap generic version then you're bound to have problems. (As commonly found on eBay)

iPhones are made in china yet regarded as high quality.
There are many products that come out of china nowadays that are of equally high quality.

 

[RobF]

There is a big and noticeable difference between branded and generic Chinese imports. It's the same across many industries. From e-bikes to i-phones.
Buy something that has been made to the specifications of a company then the quality is high. (So long as it has been specified by said company)
Buy something that is a copy or a cheap generic version then you're bound to have problems. (As commonly found on eBay)

iPhones are made in china yet regarded as high quality.
There are many products that come out of china nowadays that are of equally high quality.

The problem for the consumer can be spotting the difference between branded and generic goods.

Getting the Chinese factory to stick to the spec is another problem.

Few companies have the resources to maintain an office in China to enable quality control at source.

I have no idea where Bosch batteries are made, but they do seem to last well in terms of service life.

Maybe Bosch does keep a close eye on quality control, or maybe their contract is deemed too valuable to mess them about.

Bosch batteries are expensive, but since they last about twice as long, they may even work out cheaper for the consumer.

 

[Woosh]

Bosch batteries are expensive, but since they last about twice as long

sorry to sound like a broken record, but do you have any proof to support such claim?
I have examples of Chinese batteries that I sold in 2011 and still working.

 

[mooksy_86]

do you realise that you are tarring all the Chinese e-bike importers here with the same brush? Have you got any proof that any battery that I, Kudos, Amp, Cyclotricity, Edge.Bike or Juicy sell (those present on here) gives less than what is labelled?
Although you don't say that we do, but the inference is 'don't buy Chinese batteries', they are sus.

There actually seems to be good feedback on the kits from reputable sellers like yourself in pretty much all cases I've come across Woosh. I'd warrant a lot of kits are produced in the far east anyway even if they're labeled as otherwise, economic arbitrage being the key to competitiveness among many such businesses after all.

 

[mooksy_86]

The closest kit I've found that's suitable to my needs so far is from Cyclotricity https://www.cyclotricity.com/uk/custom/mix-match-your-own-conversion-kit.html Mainly due to them offering a 21Ah battery option, which would fulfill my original requirement of charging only once per day. Although it would seem the front hub versions of their kits are restricted to strictly 15mph. Damn this is a tricky game

 

[Woosh]

There actually seems to be good feedback on the kits from reputable sellers like yourself in pretty much all cases I've come across Woosh. I'd warrant a lot of kits are produced in the far east anyway even if they're labeled as otherwise, economic arbitrage being the key to competitiveness among many such businesses after all.

there are plenty of good reports on batteries from Kudos, Cyclezee, Juicy and Wisper to name a few. The thing that bugs me is Rob seems to paint all Chinese batteries and bikes with the same brush.

 

[Trevormonty]

You shouldn't run a 500Whr battery flat on your commuter run if it is charged at each end. Return trip is still possible on single charge but you will just have to manage your power consumption by reducing speed and assist settings.

A kit bike will not give you any more advantage than factory bike when comes to riding with flat battery. They are both heavy with high gearing.

Best thing you can do is test ride a bike and see how they pedal unassisted.

 

[RobF]

The closest kit I've found that's suitable to my needs so far is from Cyclotricity https://www.cyclotricity.com/uk/custom/mix-match-your-own-conversion-kit.html Mainly due to them offering a 21Ah battery option, which would fulfill my original requirement of charging only once per day. Although it would seem the front hub versions of their kits are restricted to strictly 15mph. Damn this is a tricky game

A 21ah battery will be a big lump.

Should still fit on the downtube, but you might want to take note of the measurements to satisfy yourself you could live with it.

Leaving aside Bosch's twin battery system, I would rather have two batteries, carrying the spare in a pannier.

Which is what I used to do before getting the Riese and Muller bike.

You could also do with establishing which cells the no name battery uses.

Even woosh might agree there is a variation.

'Panasonic cells' sounds good, Panasonic is a good make.

But they make lots of different models of cells, some giving an excellent performance in an ebike pack, some giving a less good performance.

Thus a pack with top quality Panasonic cells will perform better than one with budget Panasonic cells.

 

[Nealh]

As do Samsung, LG, Sanyo etc,etc cells from all producers very some what depending on the use they are needed for.

At the mo for pannier or top rack bag use there are some very good softpack cell options available for quite good money with MJ1, 35E or 30Q cells.

I might not be the only one but I believe the same cells from the same manufacturer are rated as A & B grade. A's get used by pucker battery makers/sellers and B grade repackaged under another name via another lesser known third party seller.

Then after that there are some really crappy Far East /China cells, dare I say Trust fire & Ultra fire. If you look on ebay you will see 18650 3800,4200 & 9800mah cells , which I doubt will even give 980mah .

 

[Powerbikes]

The closest kit I've found that's suitable to my needs so far is from Cyclotricity https://www.cyclotricity.com/uk/custom/mix-match-your-own-conversion-kit.html Mainly due to them offering a 21Ah battery option, which would fulfill my original requirement of charging only once per day. Although it would seem the front hub versions of their kits are restricted to strictly 15mph. Damn this is a tricky game

These are big batteries but they do fit on most bikes. If you are wanting the option to de-restrict, the rear hub conversions aren't too much more. However, more power means more juice required.

We have customers round here using the 48v 250/1000w kits to commute from Whitehaven to Sellafield. There and back is roughly the same as one leg of your journey. (Some long steep hills on the route!) The big 768Wh (16Ah) battery will make the journey there and back twice. Although normally they do top the battery up while at work.

Most people who use these kits with the big battery report a range of roughly 40-45 miles. So they will do your commute but I would advise charging either end if possible.

More info on the big kits here
https://powerbikes.uk/shop/conversion-kit/dual-power-2501000w-switchable-conversion-kit-rear-wheel-motor/

If you have any questions about these just let me know.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I am really amazed that no one has suggested the easy solution of paralleling a couple of of batteries...

22 miles (35.4 km) is a long way to cycle. You want to do it fast so I would be looking at a 48v system. Personally I think http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2017-7M-D4MX.9PERW X 2 behind a 20 A controller and powering a 201 rpm 36v 500W geared hub motor would get the job done nicely. 23 Ah - 1.1 kWh, no sag because you have 100 Amps on tap and are only drawing 0.2C at 20 Amps. A 27.5 hardtail frame with big disk brakes and Super Moto X tyres on nice wide Halo rims, decent lights, comfortable saddle with suspension seat post... You should be able to build one for under £1000 if you get the right host frame from your local auction site.

 

[Deno]

For the OP, I have a Cube Reaction Hybrid Pro 500 and I commute 27km each way to work on it. It has the Bosch Performance CX and a 500WH battery. My commute is on tarmac and is mostly flat but with steep climbs at each end.

I have derestricted it with a SpeedBox 2 from e-biketuning. This allows assistance regardless of speed and does not seem to affect the display apart from the speed in mph, kph is fine. I have also changed the front ring from an 15T to an 18T, this allows comfortable pedalling at 50km/h. Following shredding the sidewall of the standard schwalbe tyres I have swapped them for Marathon MTB tyres. One frustration has been the lack of boss mounts on the frame but I used Topeak clamps to attach pump/lock holder/bottle rack. For mudguards I used a Zefal clip on on the front and a seatpost mounted crud catcher on the rear.

I will use 4/5ths of the battery capacity each way so I have a 2nd charger in work. My commute is 45-50min, mostly due to heavy traffic.

I don't use panniers, rather an osprey backpack which is excellent for laptop, clothes etc. I do find that I need a shower, that's okay for me as I have facilities in work, slowing down would solve this.

The bike is reviewed here:
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/cube-reaction-hybrid-pro-bosch-cx-500wh.23332/

I am mostly delighted with the bike, maybe I should have gone for something a little more efficient in terms of aero (a 29er at 50kph pushes a lot of air) but it does a great job for me. If buying again I would select the drive system and geartrain that I want and buy from the best value brand. Hope that this helps.

 

[Woosh]

good choice, Deno.
the Bosch CX seems to offer the right balance between speed, power and battery usage. Shame that there is no such discipline when it comes to Chinese kits which tend to make people lazier in comparison and therefore require a bigger battery, putting a smaller limit on distance.

 

[mooksy_86]

It's between the Cube SUV https://www.freeborn.co.uk/cube-suv-hybrid-27-5-pro-500-2017 or a Thorn Nomad with a front hub kit. I'm still undecided but I've definitely ruled out a rear hub drive as I will need an internally geared hub due to the large amount of mud and grit along my route.

The extra battery capacity would be nice to have but as mentioned - I can take the battery off and charge at work if necessary. So anything 13Ah+ would be perfectly fine. I'd definitely rather have a smaller capacity battery I can rely on than a cheap PoS that will let me down.

The Cube looks great but I'm concerned about how well it will pedal if the battery does run out (i.e. it would only ever really be usable as an e-bike) and I've also been unable to find out if the Bosch performance line cruise motor on the bike is capable of 45kph like the performance line speed Bosch also make. If it's built to only do 25kph regardless of UK law and de-restricting it will destroy the motor then it's a no go.

On the other hand the Thorn is much more expensive and when adding the kit will make the difference over £1k. The kit fitting process could also be tricky and sussing out which kits are good quality and which are garbage seems to be a minefield giving all of the differing opinions. But they are incredibly durable bikes so I'll have faith in it lasting a long time. I'll also have the option to remove the kit and use the bike as regular touring bike should I choose to.

Mulling it all over.

 

[soundwave]

the active and performance line motors are the same only difference is less Torque on the active motors for hub gears.

and the same for the s class motors there both the same but different speed limits 25-45.

had a dongle on my bike since 2014 and no problems and ebike shop fit dongles and honour the warranty.

you can ride them with no power but it is still a 20kg plus bike so forget going up any kind of hills with no juice.

 

[Woosh]

if you go for a 13AH battery and recharge often, you should consider Lithium Ion Phosphate battery. They weigh 25% more but can be charged twice as fast and have exceptionally long life.
Kudos may have some stock with LiPO4 batteries.

 

[RobF]

A Thorn unpowered doesn't look like a goer to me.

Even with a different wheel, you would still have the wiring, battery cradle and possibly the display on the bike.

It would look a mess and still be a heavy bicycle.

As said, you could pedal the Cube unpowered and removing the battery would save a useful couple of kilos.

But it will still be a heavy bike and very hard on hills.

To me, riding an ebike unassisted is really only a get you home measure in the event of an electrical breakdown.

Bear in mind eco setting on Bosch bikes is very light assist, you would still get plenty of exercise.

 

[Trevormonty]

The Cube will still a decent resale value if you decide its not for you, especially if still under factory warranty.

 

[Artstu]

I think the Cube is the wrong bike for you, have you worked out how to fit mudguards for example? You need a hybrid as a minimum, MTB is going the wrong way for your high daily mileage, and I think you'll be searching out road routes to work as well.

 

[Deno]

Funny enough I forgot to charge my battery on the cube last night and had to cycle unassisted for a while this morning. Maintaining 20kph on the flat was easy, heading into wind or uphill obviously cut that a bit. Remember I have a larger front cog and it was still manageable. What I actually did was switch off on the flat and just left it on eco for the hills, it was fine really.