Bike Europe draws attention to illegal tuning kits

[flecc]

I've just spent some time talking to Stromer, who have a powerful ebike. The importers already import electric an petrol mopeds/scooters. The Stromer has type approval, so you can go to the shop and buy thr Stromer already registered with a number plate. You can insure it and ride it away from the shop legally at however fast it goes. I had about 40km/h on the short test track. More and more such bikes will become available.

It's basically an S class e-bike, registered in the UK as L1e-B like a moped. The question mark for me is, as said above, the question of having to wear a motorcycle helmet and not being able to use bicycle facilities. To my mind either those factors kill the market for it or owners will just flout the law and treat their bike as a normal e-bike, probably getting away with it.
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[Stalkingcat]

Yep understood, my only thread on here was concerning the technical aspects involved in engineering a battery powered build on a 5kw+ build.
I created the thread in the 'off road' and 'abroad' section so as not to conflict with the

this is an ebike forum?

crowd,
KTM took my quote and posted it here thus crossing two paths of completely different vehicles. So i though that I would post back to defend myself and put it into perspective..
There are lots of informed engineering folk on this forum, so its a world of knowledge. Live and let live.
Interesting about the kit care legislation as I heard that they have been trying to bring the UK in line with the EU regarding this and all vehicles, Maybe im wrong but that's what I've been informed or maybe its only if you wish to then sell to the EU??? Some friends are in deep discussions through a kickstarter campaign to try to push a fast ebike through EU law. Often the law makers don't understand the law, especially if its new and is to be accepted by every EU state.

 

[flecc]

Some friends are in deep discussions through a kickstarter campaign to try to push a fast ebike through EU law. Often the law makers don't understand the law, especially if its new and is to be accepted by every EU state.

I don't understand this? The EU already accepts a fast e-bike class, seen in Germany as the S class. The Netherlands has a partial acceptance too and France will adopt it fully in 2017.

Though they fall into the motor vehicle class L1e-B like mopeds, each country can legislate to limit the effects of that, such as no driving licence necessary and permitting cycle helmets.
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[Stalkingcat]

It's basically an S class e-bike, registered in the UK as L1e-B like a moped. The question mark for me is, as said above, the question of having to wear a motorcycle helmet and not being able to use bicycle facilities. To my mind either those factors kill the market for it or owners will just flout the law and treat their bike as a normal e-bike, probably getting away with it.

Agreed that this is neither here nore there. A slightly more powerful road going ebike that you can take down a public track. Fair play for doing it though as this was really my initial argument, that there are some Amazing bikes and opportunists out there that haven't yet been exploited because they are illegal to use.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Ok, I'm always happy to be proved wrong and I'd love to be able to sell our sPedelecs in the UK.

So please can you all help me with two points

1) where are you actually riding your bike stalkingcat?

2) how are stromer registering their bikes? Everything we've checked shows that do this you have to do what the guy on here posted about last week ie fit mirrors, lights, plates etc etc turning it into a moped..

 

[Stalkingcat]

I don't understand this? The EU already accepts a fast e-bike class, seen in Germany as the S class. The Netherlands has a partial acceptance too and France will adopt it fully in 2017.

Though they fall into the motor vehicle class L1e-B like mopeds, each country can legislate to limit the effects of that, such as permitting cycle helmets for example

Again i think that we are talking about different things. The bikes i'm building and looking to register will be in the 60+mph and will get there in a few seconds. Essential if competing with the motorcycle market, will just have to make them better than ICE'd motorcycles, which is now pretty much possible. Look at Tesla.

 

[Stalkingcat]

1) where are you actually riding your bike stalkingcat?

I ride my bike in the local Matchams forset Bournemouth, which is privately owned as has a world class motorcross track in the middle, now closed.

It is legal to fit road going items to get the test, then take off everything except from the m/b tyres, rear light, number plate and speedo, put it through mot, insure it and ride off into the sunset.

 

[flecc]

My query was what is the Kickstarter group trying to push through as e-bike law in the EU? I just can't see that there is anything necessary, the S class mentioned looks after fast e-bikes as described, and there's nothing to stop the creation of 60 mph motorbike like machines.

That group appears to be tilting at windmills, imaginary enemies.
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[Stalkingcat]

and ride off into the sunset.

No lights needed so you actually need to be home before sunset fails

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

From my memory, that forest is privately owned but has public access doesn't it? In which case im afraid by riding your bike there you are breaking the law.

 

[Stalkingcat]

I think the S class will be the new EU test but I think they are trying to standardized it so its exactly the same throughout EU countries, this is quite important for manufacturers wanting to be legal in every country . I havent started this process yet so haven't got first hand experience, however was told be someone who does, that for a small production run, each part has to be thoroughly tested, which costs time and money hence the kickstarter campaign. Its actually now suspended for a white whilst they try to iron out the red tape...
Many European riders have gone through the process of road registering their build but is is an arduous task as power is tested along with a whole load of stuff not looked at in the UK.

I think the Kick starter campaign is on hold whilst they rewrite the new standardized rule book.

 

[Stalkingcat]

From my memory, that forest is privately owned but has public access doesn't it? In which case im afraid by riding your bike there you are breaking the law.

Come arrest me then. You are prob feeling threatened in case someone clocks onto the fact that you are selling terrible bikes at extortionate prices to the un-suspecting middle/late age person.

 

[Stalkingcat]

Only in England, I think we even invented the phrase 'jobsworth'

 

[Stalkingcat]

Im lucky enough to own a ski place in the Alps and the whole area is enjoyed by walkers, cyclings, runners etc all on the same track that DH mountain bikes go up to 70mph down. Everyone has respect for one another and Im not saying hat we should do the same in the UK because we haven't the space, but really, what happened, when did the wool socks crowd come from?

If a dog worker walks across Matchams MX track demanding their right of way, then everyone would stop, let them pass and the have a good laugh.
I walk across my local golf course as i have right of access but i would never ask a golfer to stop playing. A golf ball in the side of the head can be fatal.

 

[flecc]

I think the S class will be the new EU test but I think they are trying to standardized it so its exactly the same throughout EU countries, this is quite important for manufacturers wanting to be legal in every country .

There's two aspects here so I think there may have been some misunderstanding in that group. The first aspect is the vehicle which has to be standardised for use across Europe and to ensure no country has a trading advantage. That's already done for the S class and now has 500 watts EU permitted power since May 2013. There have been a number of manufacturers successfully marketing these and for most parts existing bicycle standards have been historically permitted. The L1e-B type approval legislation does appear to be far more stringent such as including United Nations regulations with UNECE regulation 78 on braking standards*, but if an e-bike is under 35 kilos, and almost all will be, the requirements for that are considerably eased.

The second aspect is usage, and that is properly the domain of each government for usage within their territory. That therefore differs and always will since the EU commission do not concern themselves in that.

* Requirements of UNECE Reg. 78 for L1e-A + B, but if mass in running order is < 35 kg, then 2 exceptions:

-‐ In hydraulic brakes, reserve fluid receptacles excluded
from ease of fluid-level checking requirements

-‐ Adapted testing requirements for rim brakes
Adapted stopping distance requirements for vehicles with
rim widths of < 45 mm.
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[Croxden]

[quote="Stalkingcat, post: 250922, member: 12924"you are selling terrible bikes at extortionate prices to the un-suspecting middle/late age person.[/quote]

And here was I thinking they were good bikes at a reasonable price.

 

[Stalkingcat]

That's already done for the S class and now has 500 watts EU permitted power since may 2013. There have been a number of manufacturers successfully marketing these and for most parts existing bicycle standards have been historically permitted. The L1e-B type approval legislation does appear to be far more stringent such as including United Nations regulations with UNEC regulation 78 on braking standards*, but if an e-bike is under 35 kilos, and almost all will be, the requirements for that are considerably eased.

OK that's why I'm not too up on this as the kickstarter bikes start at 10kw power levels and weigh close to 70kg, The S class regs aren't really applicable. The bikes that I'm talking about need each part to be scrutinized for safety.

 

[JohnCade]

Lot of trade people, and others who have been involved with cycling organisations lobbying government over e bike law post here. So most of them know what they're talking about in this area. If you had done a quick search you would see that this topic has been aired here over and over again...

Wishing something to be so doesn't make it so. But no one here is trying to stop you doing anything as far as I can see. If you or anyone else knows the law and ignores it it's your choice. But a surprising number of people don't know it, and still think they can use a high powered electric bike off road legally, and of course there are really only a very few places in England and Wales where they can; and nowhere at all in Scotland. As DC posted out on the other thread.

 

[Stalkingcat]

Yep fair enough, I think that even the ones that say they didn't realise that it was illegal, probably did in some way, I think people would have got the point now though.

 

[flecc]

OK that's why I'm not too up on this as the kickstarter bikes start at 10kw power levels and weigh close to 70kg, The S class regs aren't really applicable. The bikes that I'm talking about need each part to be scrutinized for safety.

Thanks, I understand now, not fast e-bikes as we understand them currently.

I can certainly see considerable difficulties in getting a bicycle like machine accepted into law with 10 kilowatts of power. Being so far outside of present perceptions it will need some very open minds, uncommon in bureaucratic circles!
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