Bike Europe draws attention to illegal tuning kits

[Gubbins]

Don't you think we have both Phill? Some of Haibike's models for example are hardly geriatric and to me match what you ask for, and they aren't the only make with modern designs.
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I wasnt meaning anything, anyone or any brand in particular flecc, and yes I think Haibke's bikes look fab and definitely fall into my "desirable " category, and so do the KTM's and the Scott that I bought, but when I was looking at buying an e-bike without the help from this forum (which I was for quite some time 2 years ago) the dealers around here and general internet searches tended to show me Step through's, folders, bikes with full mudguards and soft springy seats with batteries on a rack which is fine for those that want that, but could you see a 25 year old male on a step through riding over the moors? Well, I am a 25 year old , but with wrinkles....
OH, and I know KTM, and Martin who post are in the trade, but I dont always know who else is so apologies if I have offended here..

 

[flecc]

There's no offence taken on my part Phill and can't imagine others being offended. I agree that until fairly recently the scene was a bit mundane, but that largely reflected the market that had existed before the recent growth in cycling. Things are changing overall, but the bulk of the e-bike market is roughly as Trex said earlier, for conventional machines with mudguards, carriers, lights, even a basket on the front, and not too much complexity.

While almost 80 year olds like me are rather like the sixty year olds of yesteryear in activity terms, we are also conscious of how an elderly man in a sports car or lycra clad on an out-and-out sports bicycle can be an object of ridicule.
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[Stalkingcat]

I'm afraid statements like this are very common on here. So I'm afraid my concern is not arrogance it's one based on reading lots of post on here that are simply wrong.

Eg

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Exactly, please no comments about legalities!! we know that its illegal to take powerful builds on roads but still fun to build them and blast off road

Excuse me, who are you,?
Ive ridden many extreme KTM none road legal bikes on my local MX track and 'off road'
I am a very conscientious person, who respects laws and people around me.

You have presumed and are making out that I am a law breaker in order to push your shitty bikes.

I'm actually more into the technical side of things and what the engineering possibilities are.

 

[Stalkingcat]

What puzzles me about this 'legal' limit, is that if you buy say a Mercedes which is capable of 140mph; then you are insured up to the speed limit that you are travelling in. if you get caught going 80mph in a 30 zone, then surely technically you aren't insured and are breaking the law. So why not on the same on an e-bike?

 

[D8ve]

What puzzles me about this 'legal' limit, is that if you buy say a Mercedes which is capable of 140mph; then you are insured up to the speed limit that you are travelling in. if you get caught going 80mph in a 30 zone, then surely technically you aren't insured and are breaking the law. So why not on the same on an e-bike?

Because The law says it must have a max powered design speed. End off. No sense arguing that here go to your MP if you want the law changed or register the bike as an electric motor cycle.

 

[Stalkingcat]

Because The law says it must have a max powered design speed. End off. No sense arguing that here go to your MP if you want the law changed or register the bike as an electric motor cycle.

Ok makes sense somewhat, even though most (good) bikes are designed to go a lot faster than that. I'm not arguing anything

 

[Stalkingcat]

I absolutely agree that riding on-road with an illegal fast ebike, with no insurance and no cover if an accident occurs, is a threat to everyone's safety ,so I don't want the law changed in this respect.
Now that technology advances have pushed e-bikes into the realms of e-motorbike territory and are offering a real alternative as a 'better' form of transport and other exciting crossover sports bikes, It will be interesting to see what products emerge in the next few years...
Advances in technology don't really matter much to 'legal' pedelecs as they are limited anyhow. We need to separate these two forms of transport/bikes, thats why I responded about being mis-quoted by ktm. Cheers

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Excuse me, who are you,?
Ive ridden many extreme KTM none road legal bikes on my local MX track and 'off road'
I am a very conscientious person, who respects laws and people around me.

I'm actually more into the technical side of things and what the engineering possibilities are.

ok ok... Your use of the phrases on and off road needs some clarification then. When you say you use your bike offroad, where are you riding it?

I think we might need to go into a bit more detail so you can understand why I've used your post as an example of the lack of understanding that happens all to often on here... and too many people who are breaking the law and putting themselves, our industry and others at risk, don't even realise they are doing it.

Can you answer one question for me... the KTM Motorbikes you were riding, were the MX bikes, Enduro bikes, or Enduro bikes with the upgrades to make them road legal? You can't take an MX bike into your local park, or onto a canal path, or ride it anywhere, that isn't private land.

If you've got a road legal enduro bike, the rules are different, it has to have mirrors, plates, tax, testing etc etc... just the same as you'd need to make a powerful eBike able to be used anywhere other than private land. NOT JUST ON THE ROAD.

You're powerful eBike is, in the eyes of the law the same as an MX bike, ie you can only ride it on private land... that private land can be on or offroad.

I absolutely agree that riding on-road with an illegal fast ebike, with no insurance and no cover if an accident occurs, is a threat to everyone's safety ,so I don't want the law changed in this respect.

You've said it again here.

Its not just riding on road that's the problem, they are not legally able to be used anywhere other than private land.

Do you not see that the implications on an incident in a forest, or on a bridleway, or canal path are potential even more serious than one on the road. Cyclists have been campaining for better access for years, and there is a big move to stop illegal use of motor bikes at key venues around the UK... if people start realising that illegal eBikes are being used there, the impact on the eBike industry and peoples perceptions of it will be very negative.

If you have access to a private estate and thats where you're using the bike then obviously my concerns aren't valid, but I suspect I am correct and that you're using your bike off road in the public domain and not realising that this is just as illegal as taking it onto tarmac.

 

[Stalkingcat]

I dont want to confuse anyone. My interest is in building a 'perfect' electric bike to replace the KTM MX bikes which I used to ride at my local MX track 'private land' which was closed down last year due to noise complaints.

but I suspect I am correct and that you're using your bike off road in the public domain and not realising that this is just as illegal as taking it onto tarmac.

No your not correct, I'm also interested in building an equivalent bike as above to use legally on road, with registration and insurance.

The thread and post that you initially quoted me on was about the technical side of a bike build to make this possible. Not about road legalities which is why I wrote

Exactly, please no comments about legalities!! we know that its illegal to take powerful builds on roads but still fun to build them and blast off road

'off road meaning private land. However I do confess to occasionally riding my illegal bike t the local shop, but i generally pedal it there often without a battery.

 

[Stalkingcat]

The pedelec bikes that you sell are great for their purpose, commuter who doesn't want to get sweaty, the elderly who want to experience cycling but aren't as fit as they used to be and lots of other potential consumers/benefits.
Just don't cross quote from different sectors in direct comparison.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

What puzzles me about this 'legal' limit, is that if you buy say a Mercedes which is capable of 140mph; then you are insured up to the speed limit that you are travelling in. if you get caught going 80mph in a 30 zone, then surely technically you aren't insured and are breaking the law. So why not on the same on an e-bike?

you've said yourself you're confused about the law, and this post in this thread, shows you don't understand it.

 

[LEBC Tom]

No your not correct, I'm also interested in building an equivalent bike as above to use legally on road, with registration and insurance.

Won't be easy IVA'ing' a fast electric bike, there aren't many guidelines for test centres to base such a vehicle on. I doubt you'll get such a 'thing' through a test but wish you well if you try to.

 

[Stalkingcat]

you've said yourself you're confused about the law, and this post in this thread, shows you don't understand it.

Off course I understand the law, its not that difficult!!!!

I'm just saying that riding a high powered ebike restricted to 15mph is no more dangerous than riding a pedelec restricted to 15mph. In fact prob less so as all the components will be alot better that on KTM bikes.

The law states different and makes it illegal, which is fine for people who need their hand held by the law because they haven't the sense to monitor things on their own.

 

[Stalkingcat]

Won't be easy IVA'ing' a fast electric bike, there aren't many guidelines for test centres to base such a vehicle on. I doubt you'll get such a 'thing' through a test but wish you well if you try to.

Already done, watch this space. EU is the hard one but that's the next hurdle.

 

[flecc]

Won't be easy IVA'ing' a fast electric bike, there aren't many guidelines for test centres to base such a vehicle on. I doubt you'll get such a 'thing' through a test but wish you well if you try to.

It's been done successfully twice to my knowledge, but the end results have had a number of motorcycle like features. More to the point though are the usage factors. Who wants to ride an e-bike wearing an approved motorcycle helmet? Would they be satisfied confined only to motor vehicle territory, such as not being able to use cycle and shared paths or bridleways, and not being able to use cycle parking facilities legally?
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[Stalkingcat]

Yes for sure, its a completely different thing. My personal current venture is along the lines of competing with motorbikes which once road licensed wont be able to be ridden 'off road', (public spaces and the like) as that would be the same as taking a motorbike on a pavement.

I just got drawn into this thread by a mis-quote from KTM but we are essentially talking about two different things

 

[Stalkingcat]

For anyone interested, the EU has very tough regulations for 'production' vehicles. That's not to say its impossible but unlike the UK, each component used in a legal registered build has to undergo thorough testing, which costs around £20k per component. This makes sense, as no-one wants a breakage especially on 2 wheels. The UK has resisted this measure, probably because of its history of wacky builds and kit cars but will need to comply fairly soon, if we stay in the EU that is.

It's been done successfully twice to my knowledge, but the end results have had a number of motorcycle like features

It's been done thousands of times, maybe not always electric but the power source isn't even checked. Its an extremely complex process non the less.

 

[LEBC Tom]

Thats kind of what I was aiming at in my response, whats the point if you're going to own a motorbike, this is an ebike forum??? I own Kit Car Magazine so understand the IVA process pretty well and kits have often had problems being owned in various countries in Europe but there are no measures to bring our current setup here in the UK inline with the rest of EU, the Kit Car Industry is a sizeable market.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I've just spent some time talking to Stromer, who have a powerful ebike. The importers already import electric an petrol mopeds/scooters. The Stromer has type approval, so you can go to the shop and buy thr Stromer already registered with a number plate. You can insure it and ride it away from the shop legally at however fast it goes. I had about 40km/h on the short test track. More and more such bikes will become available.

 

[LEBC Tom]

I've just spent some time talking to Stromer, who have a powerful ebike. The importers already import electric an petrol mopeds/scooters. The Stromer has type approval, so you can go to the shop and buy thr Stromer already registered with a number plate. You can insure it and ride it away from the shop legally at however fast it goes. I had about 40km/h on the short test track. More and more such bikes will become available.

But under what category is it registered? And what else do you need to ride such a thing, helmet, licence?