Bike Cameras. The Negatives and Positives of using them

[Croxden]

I have a good Guardian Angel, it just has a wicked sense of humor.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Like with speed cameras, people will think twice about committing an offence if they think they might get caught. Look how average speed cameras keep nearly all the traffic at the speed limit. When enough cyclists carry cameras to the point that drivers will fear getting caught for their dangerous acts, you'll start to see a bit more respect.

 

[Emo Rider]

Like with speed cameras, people will think twice about committing an offence if they think they might get caught. Look how average speed cameras keep nearly all the traffic at the speed limit. When enough cyclists carry cameras to the point that drivers will fear getting caught for their dangerous acts, you'll start to see a bit more respect.

Could not agree more. Without video history to back up claims of dangerous driving and determining fault when death or injury occur, nothing will change. It saddens and shocks me to see courts hand out light slaps on the wrist to drivers that have used their cars as weapons.

Many will counter and say that the cyclists egged on the driver by being vocal and expressing displeasure because their personal safety has been put at risk. If the same thing happened on the street between two arguing pedestrians and one pulled out a knife and stabbed the other, the courts treat it in a totally different manner. Even though it is basicly the same senario, the courts seem to look at it differently just because bicycle is involved. On a bike you are as vunerable to the destructive power of an ill used vehicle as your skin is to the blade of an ill used knife.

To those that won't use a camera because of their many personal reasons and extremely good luck, you certainly are not helping. You are refusing to help the tens of thousands that daily have their lives threatened buy careless, disrespectful and dangerous drivers. If you disagree with what I just stated then give us your thoughs on how driver attitudes and dangerous actions can be changed without the use of cameras, let's hear it. Defensive driving and not putting yourself in harms way (like a lot of cycle commuters have a choice?) only goes so far.

 

[jerrysimon]

Wow a robust discussion for sure

I purchased a pair of those camera classes, used them about three or four times and gave them away. For me it was more of a fad than wanting to catch someone doing something silly/abusing me. I have enjoyed watching some of the footage of people that go on interesting rides. As I use my bike primarily for commuting I didn't really have a use for a camera.

To a certain extent I think if we go out expecting to get into an argument or altercation, (as some seem to be saying is the reason for using a camera) then that will probably happen.

Has the use of cycle cameras really changed anything ? I guess we would need to see the statistics of events before and after people started using cameras.

If you took this discussion to the logical conclusion, you could say I am going to carry a gun to deter anyone from assaulting me


Regards

Jerry

 

[selrahc1992]

Wow a robust discussion for sure

I purchased a pair of those camera classes, used them about three or four times and gave them away. For me it was more of a fad than wanting to catch someone doing something silly/abusing me. I have enjoyed watching some of the footage of people that go on interesting rides. As I use my bike primarily for commuting I didn't really have a use for a camera.

To a certain extent I think if we go out expecting to get into an argument or altercation, (as some seem to be saying is the reason for using a camera) then that will probably happen.

Has the use of cycle cameras really changed anything ? I guess we would need to see the statistics of events before and after people started using cameras.

If you took this discussion to the logical conclusion, you could say I am going to carry a gun so that deters anyone from assaulting me


Regards

Jerry

here's a true anecdote. a year ago a bloke on a motorcycle (who had his licence revoked it emerged later, for medical reasons) hammered into teh back of my little fiat panda at great speed. i thought all would be straightforward (he drove into the back of my car) - it was not. my insurance company wanted to register it as a no fault claim (meaning no one held responsible (and i would loose my no claim bonus). i went to look for cctv but could find none. then i spoke to the police (who i phoned after it happened) and one of the policemen had witnessed it. it - really - saved my skin. his testimony changed everything. I'm originally from a bit of africa where carrying a gun is in fact quite normal. i wouldnt do it here - but a tiny sj4000 seems a small price to pay for a lot of peace of mind.

 

[flecc]

You are refusing to help the tens of thousands that daily have their lives threatened buy careless, disrespectful and dangerous drivers. If you disagree with what I just stated then give us your thoughts on how driver attitudes and dangerous actions can be changed without the use of cameras, let's hear it. Defensive driving and not putting yourself in harms way (like a lot of cycle commuters have a choice?) only goes so far.

You are like so many cyclists grossly exaggerating the dangers of cycling and by doing so, it is you who are the greatest threat. It is well known that the more cyclists on the roads, the lower the dangers as driver awareness becomes ever more concious of cyclists with resulting care taken.

But Britain suffers from cycling having a dangerous image and that alone keeps cycling minimal and prompts parents to refuse to allow their children to cycle. Every time you and others greatly exaggerate the dangers, you exacerbate the problem by keeping the number of cyclists far lower than it can or should be.

But the truth is that cycling in the UK is very safe just like all other road usage here, and its actually safer on a bike saddle than in a car, fact.

The following figures from the last year of full information, 2013 which was typical, are deliberately biased against my argument, the true difference is much greater.

One occupant was killed for every 37,000 cars on the road.

One rider was killed for each 45,000 bikes actually being ridden.

As said and I can show, the true difference is much greater and cyclists are at least 20% safer than car occupants in the UK.

That's the message that you and others should be projecting to encourage many more to cycle and increase safety for all cyclists. It's only in that way that we can occupy the roads enough for government to be forced into better cycling provisions, they are never going to do it for our current small minority.

All of you who constantly rant about drivers, and others with agendas to exaggerate like ROSPA and the helmet promoting brigade do a great disservice to cycling safety. You all need to face the fact of how safe cycling really is and promote it accordingly for the good of all of us.
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[SteveRuss]

Wow a robust discussion for sure

If you took this discussion to the logical conclusion, you could say I am going to carry a gun to deter anyone from assaulting me


Regards

Jerry

A bit like the nuclear deterrent? I suppose when you're in a dangerous environment where you're going in to a situation with hostile armed individuals then there may be an argument for that. I've always never consolidated my own views on the Trident deterrent but maybe that's for another day.

I actually took measures to camo my Polaroid xs100 by buying a black rubber cover (it's white with a red front). Didn't really work that well but it helped. That idea was not born out of trying to vindicate people covertly for making silly mistakes. More that I don't want to exhibit myself as a community servicing cctv system. I'd hate that.

I'm generally above average with my awareness of what is going on around me on the road and I mean that as more of a motorist. I see hardly any cyclists with cameras in Bristol. More in London but the numbers seem very low to me. I suppose that's one of the most basic reasons I brought this whole subject up in the first place as I'm in a minority and value the views of many on here.

 

[Emo Rider]

You are like so many cyclists grossly exaggerating the dangers of cycling and by doing so, it is you who are the greatest threat. It is well known that the more cyclists on the roads, the lower the dangers as driver awareness becomes ever more concious of cyclists with resulting care taken.

But Britain suffers from cycling having a dangerous image and that alone keeps cycling minimal and prompts parents to refuse to allow their children to cycle. Every time you and others greatly exaggerate the dangers, you exacerbate the problem by keeping the number of cyclists far lower than it can or should be.

But the truth is that cycling in the UK is very safe just like all other road usage here, and its actually safer on a bike saddle than in a car, fact.

The following figures from the last year of full information, 2013 which was typical, are deliberately biased against my argument, the true difference is much greater.

One occupant was killed for every 37,000 cars on the road.

One rider was killed for each 45,000 bikes actually being ridden.

As said and I can show, the true difference is much greater and cyclists are at least 20% safer than car occupants in the UK.

That's the message that you and others should be projecting to encourage many more to cycle and increase safety for all cyclists. It's only in that way that we can occupy the roads enough for government to be forced into better cycling provisions, they are never going to do it for our current small minority.

All of you who constantly rant about drivers, and others with agendas to exaggerate like ROSPA and the helmet promoting brigade do a great disservice to cycling safety. You all need to face the fact of how safe cycling really is and promote it accordingly for the good of all of us.
.

Ok I get it, you do not like cameras and helmets. However your attitude, lack of positve action, and words did absolutely nothing to save those killed in 2013. Nor did help those killed and injured in 2014 or will it those this year and in the future.

20% fewer fatalites, are you having a good laugh at my exspence? Ridiculous and pointless comment to the discussion as this is about achieving no fatalties. You say I and others are keeping cyclist off the road by somehow exaggerating road dangers. And just how are the non cycling masses hearing this from me? All I did was take two videos to an organisation to try and improve the safety of their drivers. At least I did something and did not sit on my opinion on an internet forum.

I asked you what you were doing to improve driver safety. Your reply was to fill the roads with cyclist and that I and others were somehow responsible for this not happening. So flecc I will ask again, what are you doing to improve driver safety, to have the courts take a tougher stance on dangerous drivers that threaten, injure and kill cyclist ever year? How are you communicating to non cyclst that somehow magicly they will be safer if they just simply put themslves in harms way?

You may be comfortable with your cycling environment but I and others are not. We want driver education. We want tougher laws. We want courts to be tougher on people that daily assault cyclist. We are prepared to record and use testimony to improve the roads for cyclist. You don't want to use a camera or wear a hemet. That is all I get from you wordy replies.

 

[jerrysimon]

Pass the popcorn someone

Jerry

 

[Gringo]

OK I'm not pointing fingers here, just relaying my experiences.
I'm a leasure rider and go out of my way to ride quite roads, a lot of these are single track. I pull to the side for oncoming vehicles if it's tight and when I have a clearer view than a following car I'll wave them past when it safe.
None of my actions spoil my ride but I get plenty of positive drive feedback.

I see the polar opposite to my attitude every morning whilst driving to work, it's early in the AM and only a few miles through town but I have to avoid unlit bikes on 40mph roads, sometimes on the wrong side, pavement riders randomly turning and crossing the road, riding the central white lines and there's one bloke with a verry bright flashing white light rear mounted !
On my AM drive, only one in three cycleists are responsible riders, the other two are just liabilitys.
So my point is, it's not just car drivers that need educating.

 

[selrahc1992]

OK I'm not pointing fingers here, just relaying my experiences.
I'm a leasure rider and go out of my way to ride quite roads, a lot of these are single track. I pull to the side for oncoming vehicles if it's tight and when I have a clearer view than a following car I'll wave them past when it safe.
None of my actions spoil my ride but I get plenty of positive drive feedback.

I see the polar opposite to my attitude every morning whilst driving to work, it's early in the AM and only a few miles through town but I have to avoid unlit bikes on 40mph roads, sometimes on the wrong side, pavement riders randomly turning and crossing the road, riding the central white lines and there's one bloke with a verry bright flashing white light rear mounted !
On my AM drive, only one in three cycleists are responsible riders, the other two are just liabilitys.
So my point is, it's not just car drivers that need educating.

I drive and cycle - not by choice,but because I live in a place where transport infrastructure is so car centred some fast roads are just too dangerous for cycling. If you look beyond road manners at pollution and environmental damage car driving and ownership is probably the most irresponsible,destructive thing most of us do. The lack of a safe cycling infrastructure says a lot about the kind of environmentally irresponsible runaway capitalist narcissistic society we created

 

[flecc]

20% fewer fatalites, are you having a good laugh at my exspence? Ridiculous and pointless comment to the discussion as this is about achieving no fatalties.

No fatalities, a lovely dream, but cyclists will have to become a whole lot better for that to happen!

We want driver education. We want tougher laws. We want courts to be tougher on people that daily assault cyclist. We are prepared to record and use testimony to improve the roads for cyclist. You don't want to use a camera or wear a hemet. That is all I get from you wordy replies.

I've heard and seen this sort of thing from cyclists for years, but nothing happens as you know only too well. And it won't until the voice of cycling gets very much larger and louder so it can't be ignored. London is the proof.

By introducing a congestion charge on cars, cycle commuting has more than doubled in just over ten years and the presence of cycling in London can no longer be ignored. So now for the first time London is getting it's first proper segregated major cycle route, taking the space from cars. That's the answer that works, getting more cycling, and scaring them off doesn't help that objective.

As for your insulting ending above, wordy replies are not all you get from me, I gave you the answer to get safer cycling but you choose to ignore it. I don't think such actions as you think I should take are as urgently needed as you suggest, and the facts on cycling safety support that. If I can cycle for a lifetime while living most of the time in inner and outer London boroughs, all without collisions, how is it that these dangerous drivers aren't hurting me? They don't because by cycling sensibly with awareness I make sure they don't get the opportunities to do so.

I'm far from alone in this, large numbers cycle and drive without accidents over many years. For example, almost 490 London cyclists were killed or seriously injured for that last year of full figures, but London now has 580,000 cyclists commuting daily. That means the vast majority cycle every working day, year after year without suffering those fates, just as I do. I'm willing to bet the vast majority have no collisions of any sort. If that majority including me can do it, why can't others?

Yes there are bad drivers, but there are plenty of bad cyclists too, plus the irresponsible jay walking pedestrians. That isn't going to change to any great degree since humans are not perfectable. The art of using the roads in any way is to cope with them all, and I do that almost without any stress. It seems clear from your mood that you don't.
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[D8ve]

I must be a really bad cyclist I have had multiple accidents.
The last one was ramming a 4*4.
she drove onto the cycle path in front of me I couldn't stop in time.
(Ps just had first offer for damages of cost plus a few grand)
Then there was the driver who drove over my front wheel when I stopped at a junction. The car who pulled up along side me then turned left.

Despite being younger and I assume more foolish in my youth in Scotland.
All in England never had one in Scotland.

 

[flecc]

Were they with your illustrated style of bike d8ve?

Not criticising it, just interested.
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[D8ve]

Were they with your illustrated style of bike d8ve?

Not criticising it, just interested.
.

The BH was done by the 4*4. The other two were DF's in London.
I moved to the recumbent as I can't take weight on my wrist after the accident.
The bent is proving excellent with speed equaling a legal electric bike. (Excluding up hill).
If/when this is electrified the ave speed should be amazing even legally limited.ie down hill always +30mph and over 20mph on the flat! Add in near 15 uphill it will be a stormer.

 

[freddofrog]

wow, I've just read all of this thread, it's very interesting.

I'm not as old as @flecc, but if my calculations are correct, he's not old enough to be my father (legally speaking) LOL

So being of that age-group, and certainly I remember cycling everywhere as a kid in the 1960's, I think that the problem seems to be an "attitude" problem on both sides.

In my lifetime, I have been scared by other drivers twice in this country, once in 1977 when a woman driver turned left in front of me (in the rain too) and once in 2005 when a van driver would have killed me coming the other way on an urban road (accelerated to overtake a parked car on his side and I had to brake hard and lean over onto the pavement).

But what flecc says is true. My version .... the problem is a general negative cultural attitude towards cyclists in this country, aggravated by a negative cultural attitude of some cyclists towards motorists. I spent 3 years living and working in Holland until 2003, and for those who do not know, Holland is cyclists paradise. If you ignore dual carriageways and motorways, then there are more miles of cycle lanes than roads in Holland. All roads in countryside & villages & towns & cities have at least one red cycle lane on the road. On those roads, the cyclist is above the car in the pecking order. I loved it there, and the point is this .....I was told that if a motorist kills a cyclist in Holland, then it is automatically the motorist's fault unless they can prove that they could not have anticipated the cyclist being where they were when the motorist's and cyclist's path coincided. Indeed, when I first started cycling in Holland, it was legal for cyclists to cross on red traffic lights, and motorists crossing on green in their direction had to anticipate any cyclists. That was changed in about 2002 I think, and it was funny to see police stopping cyclists at red lights all the time LOL

I never ever felt scared of "the motorist" in Holland. I don't know if any cyclists in Holland today wear helmet cameras as a means of "road safety", I would be alarmed if the cultural attitude in Holland had changed so that they felt that they had to. What I would say is, ride very defensively on the road in this country, put up with idiot motorists, ignore them, shrug your shoulders, the cultural attitude is slowly changing in the right direction.

crikey, just re-read my post, hope it's not TLDR

 

[Gringo]

What I would say is, ride very defensively on the road in this country, put up with idiot motorists, ignore them, shrug your shoulders,

I'd like to add this,
if you come across a tw@ driver don't let get to you, it could spoil your whole day and the driver will still be a tw@

 

[flecc]

I never ever felt scared of "the motorist" in Holland. I don't know if any cyclists in Holland today wear helmet cameras as a means of "road safety", I would be alarmed if the cultural attitude in Holland had changed so that they felt that they had to. What I would say is, ride very defensively on the road in this country, put up with idiot motorists, ignore them, shrug your shoulders, the cultural attitude is slowly changing in the right direction.

Certainly not too long, all perfectly put and illustrating the same relaxed way I cycle.

And no, Holland's cyclist still don't wear helmets and certainly don't use cameras. There's a lot of cyclist deaths there though!

They average 200 cyclist deaths a year (in the last three fully recorded years 200, 200, 184) and that's with 16.8 million population. That's 11 deaths per million.

We in the UK have an average of 110 cyclist deaths a year for our 62 million population, 109 in the last fully recorded year. That's 1.8 deaths per million.

Of course they have more cyclists covering more miles, but that's no consolation to their far, far higher proportion of grieving relatives suffering their losses.

For those who want to know the deaths per million actual cyclists in each country, it's the Dutch 11.9, the British 7.8, so despite our lack of cycle facilities, we are far better in this respect. That has to be down to better cycling and driving here, and the historical data backs that up.

And Denmark, the other country with loads of excellent cycle facilities has an even worse cycling deaths comparison with the UK at 19.9 deaths per million actually cycling.

Both of these examples provide a sobering thought for those who think segregated cycle routes will always make cyclists safer. Only better cycling and driving can do that. As in all other areas of road safety, Britain leads the world in how to do it.
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[the_killjoy]

Speaking of attitude, I have just come back from Pisa and it was amazing the way people and bikes seemed to coexist. Mind you it must be said a lot of that was due to the behavior of the cyclists who didn't seem to treat each journey as a battle and were content to cycle slowly and not take exception to be ignored by the pedestrians.

 

[flecc]

Speaking of attitude, I have just come back from Pisa and it was amazing the way people and bikes seemed to coexist. Mind you it must be said a lot of that was due to the behavior of the cyclists who didn't seem to treat each journey as a battle and were content to cycle slowly and not take exception to be ignored by the pedestrians.

Indeed, the right attitude is important, tolerance is best. It's why I've often posted that we shouldn't think of fighting fo road space but of sharing it instead. As freddofrog says above, ride defensively and put up with the idiot drivers with a shrug, only a small proportion are like that.

Anyway many of the driver actions that are moaned about can be so easily avoided by fitting a bike mirror and using it intelligently. That's why I never suffer the driver who turns in on me against the side of the road, simply because I get the advance warning of the possibility and can make sure it doesn't happen.

I've posted advising using a mirror ever since the forum first opened in October 2006 and repeated that an average of four times a year since. Those who've taken the advice have posted how much it helps, but sadly they remain the minority who've made themselves much more safe.
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