Bike Cameras. The Negatives and Positives of using them

[freddofrog]

@flecc those statistics of Holland vs UK are very surprising, I always felt that the standard of Dutch driving in towns etc was better than here (though on dual carriageways and motorways I did see things as daft as over here). Cycling was definitely more relaxed, never saw anyone going fast, I tended to be the fastest.

I don't understand why the stats in Holland are higher, maybe there are many bike-on-bike accidents over there, or possibly some due to poor maintenance (I was told that it is possible to take the first unlocked bike available to ride home, and leave it outside for the next person, so there are many bikes in bad condition in circulation).

 

[halfer]

Very interesting discussion, folks. I think balancing our fear of a panopticon society with holding bad drivers to account is always going to be difficult.

My paradox is that I've wondered if I might buy a camera to deal with bad drivers whilst, on the whole, I still bemoan the sharp increase in the number of state-controlled cameras in the UK (we have a very large number compared to other countries).

Someone above expressed the view that unregulated camera usage is a problem, whereas I tend towards the other end: I find the cyclist with a camera is just being careful, whereas the street warden with a chest camera is looking for new methods of surveillance and prosecution. I will cross the street to avoid the latter (though I might ask a cyclist to turn his or her camera off if we're just having a chat).

However, this cat may already be out of the bag. I was in Halfords the other day and came across a widget I didn't realise was a thing: the car "dash cam". One brand comes with a website (policewitness.com) that promises users they can even make money from their camera, by (presumably accidentally) recording a third-party incident and getting a kickback from an insurance firm.

Oddly, a few cyclists with helmet cameras doesn't feel at all threatening to me, but perhaps that's because we're in the minority, and we're more vulnerable than folks in a tin box. Putting a camera in cars (and it's not a stretch to think that insurance companies will start to require it) feels like a step too far, and society will suffer for wondering which member of the new amateur Stasi will trip us up next.

Get out of that one, Mr. Rubik!

 

[flecc]

@flecc those statistics of Holland vs UK are very surprising, I always felt that the standard of Dutch driving in towns etc was better than here (though on dual carriageways and motorways I did see things as daft as over here). Cycling was definitely more relaxed, never saw anyone going fast, I tended to be the fastest.

I don't understand why the stats in Holland are higher, maybe there are many bike-on-bike accidents over there, or possibly some due to poor maintenance (I was told that it is possible to take the first unlocked bike available to ride home, and leave it outside for the next person, so there are many bikes in bad condition in circulation).

It's true that less of their accidents involve motor vehicles and I've also researched that. Of their average 200 cyclist deaths per year, an average of 50 are unilateral, i.e them killing themselves by silly actions etc, and an average of 40 are in collisions with motor vehicles. I assume the remainder must be on bike on bike accidents. The serious injury ratios are similar. We in Britain have around 17% of our cycling deaths unilateral, which is about 19 of our 110 deaths per annum. That rate is about two thirds of the Dutch one.

Nonetheless, all this still shows that segregated cycle routes don't of themselves stop serious accidents, they just change the nature of about half of them. It may be the case that being on segregated routes lulls their cyclists into a false sense of security with corresponding lack of attention while cycling.

Dutch officialdom have stated that the reason they instituted the cyclepath installation program at the start of the 1970s was to counter the huge drop in cycling they experienced by the 1960s. We suffered that same drop in Britain, but our government just did nothing while the Dutch acted to stop the decline.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

My paradox is that I've wondered if I might buy a camera to deal with bad drivers whilst, on the whole, I still bemoan the sharp increase in the number of state-controlled cameras in the UK (we have a very large number compared to other countries).

You sir are the king of understatement!

You become that very same street warden as soon as you wear a camera. By wearing a camera you become part of the camera problem not the cure

 

[selrahc1992]

Speaking of attitude, I have just come back from Pisa and it was amazing the way people and bikes seemed to coexist. Mind you it must be said a lot of that was due to the behavior of the cyclists who didn't seem to treat each journey as a battle and were content to cycle slowly and not take exception to be ignored by the pedestrians.

I find that a broader conundrum - I experience more aggression in the UK than France or Netherlands (even walking, with pedestrians sometimes walking at me, forcing me to make way,in what feels pretty deliberate ways. When driving I see more expensive cars,used as status symbols,Rotterdam is littered with battered canta microcars, where I live here everyone wants a range rover.

 

[halfer]

You become that very same street warden as soon as you wear a camera. By wearing a camera you become part of the camera problem not the cure

I see your point, though I remain conflicted. There is a broad difference between a state-controlled, highly organised, networked and permanently recorded usage of cameras versus an ad hoc increase in amateur devices used for the limited purposes of increasing safety. One is tending towards authoritarianism, the other is not (though as I say, I don't think personal usage is necessarily without its social consequences).

 

[halfer]

Interesting @selrahc1992, about pedestrians - I have noticed that too. I try to apply @flecc's tolerance approach as much as I can, wondering if I have misinterpreted someone's actions, but the existence of a contempt for cyclists is a view I keep coming back to.

I often say that Jeremy Clarkson and those of a similarly aggressive wide-boy individualism have a lot to cultural damage to answer for. Sadly that nearly 1M people would sign a petition in defence of his recent thuggery demonstrates the scale of the mindset we are up against.

 

[flecc]

the existence of a contempt for cyclists is a view I keep coming back to.

Something like this definitely exists, though it's perhaps not so much contempt as annoyance at the difficulties that bicycles present to drivers. I'm not in any way speaking of cyclist fault of course, just the fact that the nature and relatively low speed of bikes doesn't fit in well with motor traffic.

There's two ways of looking at bikes in traffic. The correct one is the bike having the right to possess a traffic lane at the point where it is, therefore holding up everyone at bike speed unless an adjacent lane allows an overtake. Drivers hate that of course.

The wrong but widely held one is that the bike should be at the edge of the traffic lane to allow a motor vehicle to pass or be alongside.

Unfortunately in a UK with 32 million motor vehicles and just 8 million used bikes with only 2 million regularly used, drivers have dominance and can call the shots, politically and in the real world.
.

 

[4bound]

the street warden with a chest camera is looking for new methods of surveillance and prosecution.

I think if you knew the amount of abuse and assault these people have to endure while doing there very necessary ( to keep the traffic moving) and badly paid job, you would see it differently. If these cameras can reduce this even a little they are worthwhile. In some cases they will deter, in other the offenders will have to be dealt with according to the law. I see no harm in that.

 

[D8ve]

There are statistics and so on but the deaths per million cyclists isn't the same as deaths per million miles.
I suspect that the polders will encourage far more miles than most hilly UK trips will.

 

[flecc]

There are statistics and so on but the deaths per million cyclists isn't the same as deaths per million miles.
I suspect that the polders will encourage far more miles than most hilly UK trips will.

Yes, they do higher mileages than we do and I've allowed for that in my comment about the deaths when I implied that's no consolation for grieving families.

However, our commuting to work mileages are individually on average 24% higher than the Dutch, not surprising given our much larger cities and country. Since a high proportion of our deaths are of commuters and that's presumably not too different there, the relative mileages may not be so big a factor. Tiredness plays a big part in accidents and those commuting home will often be quite tired after a day's work.
.

 

[freddofrog]

I fear that I may have "derailed" the OP's point by mentioning "motorist vs cycle" incidents in Holland. Whether the statistic of "death by motorist" is per cycling population, or per total population, or per mile, from my 3-year experiences there I really thought that in Holland the figure would be in single figures.

To my surprise it seems that whatever the stat is based on, they are in the same ballpark.

But my main point was that the use of helmet cameras does not seem prevalent in Holland, which goes to show that there is a cultural difference between motorists and cyclists in Holland.

Let me put it this way.

When I was driving my car in Holland, I used to see cyclists and think "I wish I was on my bike like them". When I was cycling, I would think "those poor people in their cars, glad I'm on my bike"

Then when I came back to the UK, when I was in my car I started to think "glad I'm not cycling on these roads", and when I was on my bike I used to think "I wish I was in my car".

 

[flecc]

there is a cultural difference between motorists and cyclists in Holland.

Indeed, the difference is stark, chalk and cheese. I think it's all about numbers, bikes being so prevalent everywhere there, forcing a change in attitudes. Segregated cyclists don't get the causes to feel bad about drivers, and the separated drivers likewise about cyclists.

But like anyone who sees the facts of this, the accident rates there do surprise me and especially the deaths which, like you, I'd expect to be minimal.
.

 

[halfer]

I think if you knew the amount of abuse and assault these people have to endure while doing there very necessary ( to keep the traffic moving) and badly paid job, you would see it differently.

Ah, maybe I didn't make my point clear. I'm not suggesting that individual agents of the state are, here or there, doing a bad job. I know both police officers and street wardens of decent and patient character. The issue I was raising that, where they wear a body camera, or operate a street camera with a joystick, there is a soft but increasing tendency towards authoritarianism and control, which I think is in some cases the antithesis of a society in which bonds of trust are allowed to flourish organically.

I think that is why @anotherkiwi reacted to my suggestion that cyclists could/should wear cameras - he or she sees the social consequences in the same way I do for state-controlled photography.

(Unimportant aside: street wardens deal with vagrancy, begging, street alcoholism, police-community liaison, etc - maybe you were thinking of traffic wardens?).

 

[freddofrog]

Ah, maybe I didn't make my point clear. I'm not suggesting that individual agents of the state are, here or there, doing a bad job. I know both police officers and street wardens of decent and patient character. The issue I was raising that, where they wear a body camera, or operate a street camera with a joystick, there is a soft but increasing tendency towards authoritarianism and control, which I think is in some cases the antithesis of a society in which bonds of trust are allowed to flourish organically.

I think that is why @anotherkiwi reacted to my suggestion that cyclists could/should wear cameras - he or she sees the social consequences in the same way I do for state-controlled photography.

sounds like you're attempting to have your cake and eat it LOL

"there is a soft but increasing tendency towards authoritarianism and control, which I think is in some cases the antithesis of a society in which bonds of trust are allowed to flourish organically" ...doesn't this then apply to the general public wearing helmet cams and using dash cams in order to report "road rage", rather than avoid any form of conflict with the obvious nutter in the first place ? (and thereby let the nutter calm down, and thereby promote a society in which bonds of trust flourish organically)

 

[halfer]

doesn't this then apply to the general public wearing helmet cams and using dash cams

Well, that's the question, isn't it? I don't have a simple answer. I've explained already why I think they are different, both in technical terms and in their political ramifications. For clarification: I think the ad hoc operation of cameras with limited storage, which are not networked, and that are not under the control of a single powerful entity, are entirely different from a network of state cameras where storage is, in practical terms, infinite and indefinite. State cameras are looking for trouble, and are an assertion of control, but I don't think those statements apply to cyclists wanting to avoid bad drivers.

If you take the view that all cameras are corrosive of social bonds in exactly the same way, I'd say the above differences need to be tackled (though I appreciate not all differences of opinion will be resolved here, and I am happy to agree to disagree).

sounds like you're attempting to have your cake and eat it

Heh! Well, I wouldn't put it quite that way. I'd say trying to seek for the best path through a wide array of conflicting choices, each with their own sequence of waiting domino effects, is complicated. My presentational style tends also to weigh up both sides, rather that sticking magnetically to one thing or another, which can have the unfortunate effect of making me look like I'm sitting on the fence

 

[freddofrog]

^ LOL
no harm sitting on the fence, can be a safe place when predators are on the ground

 

[Tubamanandy]

One of the best bike purchases I've ever made is the
Mirrycle Mirror, fabulous aid to safety for the cyclist. You really can't beat a decent mirror when cycling defensively

 

[D8ve]

I'm off the fence here and going hard on..... Yes mirrors can't ride without one now

 

[4bound]

(Unimportant aside: street wardens deal with vagrancy, begging, street alcoholism, police-community liaison, etc - maybe you were thinking of traffic wardens?).

I hadn't heard of Street Wardens before but assumed that you meant whatever Parking attendants are called in your council area. Here they are called Enforcement officers although only 12 to cover a huge area so its rare to see one. The name Traffic Wardens went out of use in most parts of the Uk many years ago when parking responsibility transferred from Police to Council. Some of the individuals became PCSO's some moved to councils as Enforcement officers.With your clarification I now realise that the people you meant are those who are known here as Community Safety Wardens.

I have seen many people being shown CCTV of themselves, and being honestly shocked how different their actions are to what they honestly think they remember. I think in this respect they are very useful., whether fixed official ones or moving private ones.