Battery Fires

[lenny]

Lithium-ion Battery Safety Bill [HL]: HL Bill 8 of 2024–25
Research Briefing

Published Wednesday, 28 August, 2024

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/lln-2024-0050/

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/LLN-2024-0050/LLN-2024-0050.pdf

 

[AntonyC]

It does not matter much which measures will be imposed, we need to kill as many possible causes as possible to restore confidence.

likely to fail through fire at some stage, some already have and this will continue until that stock is depleted. Ebike technology is maturing fast meaning fires in new goods will become rarer, leaving this stock as a significant risk ignored by Lord Redesdale's Bill, as with Grenfell.

How can I put it more clearly? The fire rate in new stock is reducing naturally, old stock in circulation will continue to make headlines, the Bill will only affect new stock. Does this build confidence? It's not even safety by Whack-a-Mole, what about when we all realise current dangers have been locked into future products, will confidence improve then? The knowledge is there to do better than this, easily.

 

[Woosh]

How can I put it more clearly? The fire rate in new stock is reducing naturally, old stock in circulation will continue to make headlines, the Bill will only affect new stock. Does this build confidence? It's not even safety by Whack-a-Mole, what about when we all realise current dangers have been locked into future products? The knowledge is there to do better than this, easily.

the currently proposed bill is a private members' bill. None of its clauses contains any immediate measure other than encouraging various bodies to take a look. At this rate, nothing will be done in this parliament.

I reckon we need a bit of speedy justice to deal with the issue.
a) Police remove banned or illegal products (e-scooters, Suron type e-bikes, fast DD motors).
b) Trading Standards enforce the existing laws, ensure that importers must carry out product safety assessment of their imports and fine those who don't.

 

[saneagle]

the currently proposed bill is a private members' bill. None of its clauses contains any immediate measure other than encouraging various bodies to take a look. At this rate, nothing will be done in this parliament.

It's probably because they've already done a lot, which we'll see in a new Ebike standard when they increase power to 500w and allow throttles.

 

[Ghost1951]

If the laws we already have were enforced, there would not be a problem.

Trading standards have the power to remove dangerous electrical items which have been imported. Enforcement is too sporadic.

Many fires - a great many, are caused by over powered motors and controllers causing batteries to overheat, and go into meltdown. Others are caused by fast charging.

Yesterday I spotted the most grotesque sight I ever saw regarding road safety. There was a young fellow travelling along a shared pedestrian cycle way at 35 miles an hour on a single wheeled contraption. I came alongside him, having seen him earlier riding on a pavement at similar speed.he got well ahead of me because I was obeying the speed limit and stopping at traffic lights. I caught up with him when he was riding along the path at the side of a 40 mph dual carriageway. I almost certainly have this idiot on my dash cam, but haven't tried to get it off the camera yet. This kind of contraption and Suron type bikes and Frankenstein contraptions with huge rear wheel motors are flying about Newcastle all the time, sometimes as Deliveroo bikes and sometimes just carrying a hooligan out on a jolly. If they were being taken away and crushed, there would likely be many fewer fires for the simple reason that they are working their batteries far too hard and heating them up and then the delivery guys are fast charging them so they can get out on the road again.

We don't need more law. We need more law enforcement.

 

[Ghost1951]

It's probably because they've already done a lot, which we'll see in a new Ebike standard when they increase power to 500w and allow throttles.

I did have hopes of that being passed but suspect it will be now lost in the weeds of the change of government. We will see - I'm not hoping much. The Zeitgeist has changed.

Now it's 'control', and if Rupert Bertram Mitford (Redesdale) God rot him, gets his way, the kit market will be destroyed, the kit making business will be illegal, and we will all be tied to proprietary bikes that are junk in two or three years. We have all seen so many times the plaintive requests of upset people on the forum, who have a three thousand pound scrapper on their hands with no cost effective solution to put it right when all it needs is a battery or a spare part. Leave your nice new Bosch or other expensive bike in the shed for a year and it is likely scrap, unless you can throw a LOT of money at it and live near enough to a helpful dealer.

Having to buy a CE marked, complete bike is an absolute disaster as far as I am concerned and I do not think I am in any way odd (at least in this respect).

Of course some folk will LOVE it because it will smash some of their competition into the ground. Yes - I see YOU lot.

 

[soundwave]

my bosch bike is nearly 11 years old and i can keep it going forever with the help of peter and the batts can be recelled or there is 3rd party ones from germany, still a rip off tho plus my bike can go 40mph on the flat

tho these days they make the frames in such a way if you could dongle it you cant up the gearing as a 36t is about as big as you can go, i have 52 equivalent.

 

[Voltsnamps]

If the laws we already have were enforced, there would not be a problem.

Trading standards have the power to remove dangerous electrical items which have been imported. Enforcement is too sporadic.



Yesterday I spotted the most grotesque sight I ever saw regarding road safety. There was a young fellow travelling along a shared pedestrian cycle way at 35 miles an hour on a single wheeled contraption. I came alongside him, having seen him earlier riding on a pavement at similar speed.he got well ahead of me because I was stopping at traffic lights. I caught up with him . I almost certainly have this idiot on my dash cam.

We don't need more law. We need more law enforcement.

Take the vid to plod, they may have trouble differentiating between the two idiots, let us know.

 

[Ghost1951]

How will the second paragraph of the Rupert Bill impact people putting a battery storage system in their house. I bet old Rupert hasn't realised that there is a difference between Lifepo4 batteries which are the favoured storage energy system and the other types, but here we are - the words of the Bill:

2 Lithium-ion batteries: BESS 10 (1) Before approving a planning application for stand-alone Battery Energy Storage Systems (BESS) that consist partly or wholly of lithium-ion batteries, a planning authority must consult— (a) the Environment Agency, (b) the Health and Safety Executive, and 15 (c) the local fire and rescue service for the relevant area. (2) The Secretary of State may within 12 months of the passing of this Act, by regulation, make provision regarding the granting of environmental permits 20 for stand-alone BESS facilities that consist partly or wholly of lithium-ion batter

 

[soundwave]

what we need is anti gravity and antimatter power sources, but there banned same as a cure for cancer, no money in it

 

[Az.]

It just shows how psychopathic that guy is. All those people killed in the Iraq war was nobody's fault that the weapons of mass destruction didn't exist. It was just a mistake, so nobody's to blame.

Some say million people died. Ooops.

"as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know "

 

[saneagle]

I did have hopes of that being passed but suspect it will be now lost in the weeds of the change of government. We will see - I'm not hoping much. The Zeitgeist has changed.

It will come sooner or later because it's important for the plan to make 15 minute cities and 20 minute neighbourhoods.

 

[Az.]

There is apparently a bill in the Lords on the subject of Lithium Ion battery Safety;

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/LLN-2024-0050/LLN-2024-0050.pdf

"August 2023 following a death caused by the effects of smoke inhalation. 14 The fire responsible was found to have been caused by a faulty lithium-ion e-bike battery that was charging at the time, and which had earlier been modified"

 

[soundwave]

"August 2023 following a death caused by the effects of smoke inhalation. 14 The fire responsible was found to have been caused by a faulty lithium-ion e-bike battery that was charging at the time, and which had earlier been modified"

 

[AntonyC]

the currently proposed bill is a private members' bill. None of its clauses contains any immediate measure other than encouraging various bodies to take a look. At this rate, nothing will be done in this parliament.

The Bill would impose several actions within 6 months on the Secretary of State, I fear they'd have to rush something out to fend off media claims of inaction.

I reckon we need a bit of speedy justice to deal with the issue.
a) Police remove banned or illegal products (e-scooters, Suron type e-bikes, fast DD motors).
b) Trading Standards enforce the existing laws, ensure that importers must carry out product safety assessment of their imports and fine those who don't.

c) Police the laws around tampering with and stealing from vehicles, to include ebikes, to facilitate charging in spaces like back yards rather than indoors.
d) Tax unprotected cell-packs in the consumer market to a point where they don't compete with batteries.

Swift yes but we should be careful with strong enforcement. E-scooters might be ideal for first responders at events but we'll not discover the good uses of banned products. My bike has a visibly oversize motor (with EAPC controller) to survive the downs without overheating. Who here has fitted their bike with properly marked lights?

 

[Ghost1951]

If we were using LFP batteries there would be no fires. It is virtually impossible to get them to start a fire even when they are horribly abused.

They are not prone to thermal runaway as are other lithium batteries which depend on cathode materials like Manganese Oxides and cobalt oxides. These can be very fire prone if abused, or have even just become old.

Electrolytes in all these batteries are flammable, but Iron phosphate cathodes don't go into thermal run away when they get hot, and set fire to the cell, and they don't generate their own oxygen like cathode materials based on cobalt and manganese oxides, making fires hard to put out.

LFE batteries are being adopted in EV cars and other vehicles. Tesla are using them now in the majority of their vehicles and BYD entirely. BYD make more electric cars than any other manufacturer in the world.

The energy density of LFP is lower, than cobalt and manganese chemistry, but the advantages of those is decreasing.

Quite apart from safety, LiFePo4 (LFP) has a much longer working life with expected cycle count into thousands of charges as against a few hundred cycles for the batteries we e-bikers use now.

Quite a lot of the poor reputation of LFP on this site, is based on cells made a long time ago when batteries generally were not made like they are now. The complaints about them swelling up indicate the symptoms of LFP being over charged or having been worked too hard.

I'm going to suggest that in five years time, iron phosphate batteries will dominate both the car market and the e-bike one too, just as they already dominate the energy storage market.

 

[Woosh]

LFP batteries now reach 200wh/kg. Not far off the NMC chemistry that we use on e-bikes.

 

[Ghost1951]

LFP batteries now reach 200wh/kg. Not far off the NMC chemistry that we use on e-bikes.

Yes - that's right. I also doubt that an extra 20% or 30% on the weight of the battery would make much difference on an ebike, given the fact that the bikes are powered. I wonder how many of us are not a couple of kg over our ideal weight.... That's about the difference I think (back of a cig packet estimate - admittedly). Another advantage is that the voltage curve is much flatter, so whatever the voltage of the pack you choose, there is a much lower fall off than with the other lithium types.

Just thinking off the top of my head, I wonder if the lower power density is more about the lower voltage of the LFP cells. Fully charged they are about 3.4v to 3.6v whereas the currently favoured cells are 4,2v. That difference is about 19% on its own and is obviously related to power output (P=IV).

EDIT:

Re the last line - sloppy argument - power output is not the same thing as energy density, but if a cell can produce x Amps at 3.4 volts it has lower energy capacity than one that can produce x Amps at 4.2 volts, so maybe the argument stands up....

Energy density is a different can of worms..

 

[Ghost1951]

Fire deaths over time in the UK. There has been a massive decline in deaths since 1985. A reduction of two thirds.

Fire-related fatalities in Britain 2023 | Statista

There were 321 fire-related fatalities in Great Britain in the 2022/23 reporting year, a decline on the previous reporting year when there were 335.

www.statista.com

 

[saneagle]

Yes - that's right. I also doubt that an extra 20% or 30% on the weight of the battery would make much difference on an ebike, given the fact that the bikes are powered. I wonder how many of us are not a couple of kg over our ideal weight.... That's about the difference I think (back of a cig packet estimate - admittedly). Another advantage is that the voltage curve is much flatter, so whatever the voltage of the pack you choose, there is a much lower fall off than with the other lithium types.

Just thinking off the top of my head, I wonder if the lower power density is more about the lower voltage of the LFP cells. Fully charged they are about 3.4v to 3.6v whereas the currently favoured cells are 4,2v. That difference is about 19% on its own and is obviously related to power output (P=IV).

EDIT:

Re the last line - sloppy argument - power output is not the same thing as energy density, but if a cell can produce x Amps at 3.4 volts it has lower energy capacity than one that can produce x Amps at 4.2 volts, so maybe the argument stands up....

Energy density is a different can of worms..

We used to use LFP batteries. I had a 36v 20ah one that weight about 6kg. With a motor running at 30A, it would wheely if I didn't open the throttle carefully. That was 14 years ago. The probllem with LFP ebike cells, is that they don't have the quality of the mass produced LMC cells; however, now that they're being used in houses and vehicles, the quality will improve. That's if you can make an ebike battery out of the same cells, though most of them are much too big.