Am I correct @flecc and @Wisper Bikes have been involved in the drafting of legislation in the past ? Is there anyone involved in these consultations that would represent the various interests of pedelecs members ?
Battery Fires
- Thread starter saneagle
- Start date
I along with many ebike brands, there were 42 of us at a meeting regarding battery fires on Tuesday, are busy trying to find a method of accreditation to differentiate bikes with tested systems from systems cobbled together often by people who don’t understand basic electronics. It seems that nearly all battery fires take place in batteries that are bought separately to the rest of the electronics system. Most of the remaining fires are caused when a component such as a controller or more importantly a charger is purchased from a third party and is not compatible with the system.
Currently the move is towards the electronics system on each and every bike model being separately certified, at extortionately high cost. We with the BGAB are opposed to this and believe that a closed ebike electronics system should be tested and certified so we can use on multiple models or indeed as a kit. Anyone wanting to create their own closed system would need to go through the same certification process that would be prohibitively expensive.
We understand that there are some very highly qualified and competent electronics engineers putting safe systems together, however most are not. The number of fires occurring in bike batteries in the food delivery industry backs this up.
Unfortunately for those competent system builders out there, legislators have to consider the LCD which means the scope to design and build one’s own ebike system (not unlike chemists building and setting off their own fireworks in public spaces) will eventually become illegal.
All the best, David
Currently the move is towards the electronics system on each and every bike model being separately certified, at extortionately high cost. We with the BGAB are opposed to this and believe that a closed ebike electronics system should be tested and certified so we can use on multiple models or indeed as a kit. Anyone wanting to create their own closed system would need to go through the same certification process that would be prohibitively expensive.
We understand that there are some very highly qualified and competent electronics engineers putting safe systems together, however most are not. The number of fires occurring in bike batteries in the food delivery industry backs this up.
Unfortunately for those competent system builders out there, legislators have to consider the LCD which means the scope to design and build one’s own ebike system (not unlike chemists building and setting off their own fireworks in public spaces) will eventually become illegal.
All the best, David
I'm glad to learn cost isn't a major issue and maybe compatability could be achieved.
I wrote "if a BMS works properly mischarging can't cause a problem, and as part of the battery a BMS's protection is permanent" ...and so it's tamperproof and effective even in mismatched systems. For many reasons it has to be present.
Can you explain the reasons why charger matching/comms would be a sensible measure?
I wrote "if a BMS works properly mischarging can't cause a problem, and as part of the battery a BMS's protection is permanent" ...and so it's tamperproof and effective even in mismatched systems. For many reasons it has to be present.
Can you explain the reasons why charger matching/comms would be a sensible measure?
You need comms for fast charging, monitoring and datalogging.
Charger matching is second best. Batteries are usually supplied with matching chargers but some people would search the internet for the cheapest compatible chargers ignoring the risk.
Prevention is cheaper and better than cure.
Arguably, charging in the room he was sleeping in saved his whole flat.
Moving it to the fire escape is questionable.
No. Wisper has represented supplier interests in a very few meetings with our own British legislators but not in the wider EU legislation context as far as I know. They have on the other hand used a parliamentary lobbyist on behalf of pedelecers interests.
I've never taken any part in any pedelec legislation creation, on the contrary I have acted to successfully prevent prosecutions. Saneagle has done similar.
Yes, there are people representing pedelecs members interests in the many meetings involved in creating legislation. Pedelecs member Tiberius (Nick) is a scientist and keen pedelecer who was involved in the EU meetings bringing the laws up to date at various stages. His credentials are impeccable for that role. For example he attended the three annual weekend pedelecs festivals which we once had at Presteigne, at which there were racing and hill climbing events. For the third one he created his own bike from the ground up, even to the extent of a frame modified by welding, then winning both events.**
But the reason the legislation we have can be so frustrating is due to compromise. Some at those meetings have a vested interest in preventing what we want. The moped and light motor cycle interests don't want pedelecs making inroads on their business so they oppose up having throttles on spurious safety grounds and get backed up by ROSPA and police interests who would ban everything that might conceivably cause an accident.
So compromise is ever present in the resulting laws, with no interest present getting exactly what they want.
** Link to Nick's post
Link to photos of Nick's winning pedelec
Link to the parade photos at one of the Presteigne events
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Where are the stats for that? Do you have links? I've never seen a detailed breakdown of ebike fire causes. What are these assertions based on? I certainly hope they're not just opinions from parties with vested interests. Was there anyone present at that meeting representing the interests of kit conversioners? If so, who? If we're not represented, why aren't we?
And what about right to repair? Who chaired this meeting anyway? I'd like to write to them, send them emails, put up a website, write to totally uninterested newspapers etc.From my cold head hands!
Who is this lobbyist and what does he usually lobby for?
I fear the wind has changed direction, and we're heading slowly and inexorably towards the rocks for an inevitable sinking of kit conversions as we know them. Does sound to me like the only "repairs" allowed may be by way of replacement of certified compatible modules, as opposed to inexpensive component level repairs we see so often here on this forum. Bloody wasteful and very ungreen!
Historic now, he no longer is, but he was a member of the House of Lords and of the All Party Parliamentary Cycling Group.
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Even if there was someone representing kit converters at the meeting @Wisper Bikes described, it would been a bunch of wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Loads of howling and drooling drowning out the pitifully quiet bleating.
We can't have such a person, kit bikes are not legal unless taken through Single Vehicle Approval, which makes them a motor vehicle in law. There is no provision for them in law otherwise, so they exist in a sort of vacuum.
An EAPC as a complete vehicle only exists by virtue of an exception for them to exist and be used in the Type Approval legislation.
And the technical standards for EAPCs in EN15194 are only for complete manufactured machines.
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13555153/Blaze-e-scooter-battery-terrace-houses.html When this happened, I wondered what the impact would be.
Always more restrictions....
Always more restrictions....
Monitoring and datalogging are available (openly) via a Bluetooth BMS, fast charging commonly uses comms but doesn't need to. Comms moves info and that lets you relocate circuitry should you choose to. I explained how legislating to obligate that can make products less safe.
I assume than when such legislation is introduced, some charging standards for e-bikes would be introduced like CHAdeMO. We can't continue with law of the jungle like it is at the moment.
Legal entities known as people, who convert their bikes using kits exist and not in a vaccuum - there are a lot of us, we should be represented at these meetings, and not by largely self-serving manufacturers or lobbyist who usually represents pesticides, big tobacco, big oil or whatever interests he/she/it//WTH/they are normally paid to lobby for. I realise I'm p*ssing into the wind and will probably cease going on about this here soon.
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That's great progress. Is there mileage in taking it a logical step further? The certifiable black box has shifted from ebike model to closed electronics system, could it become the consumer-proof battery (perhaps alongside systems)?
By that I mean one with all the protections that can keep the cells stable in a consumer environment: riding, charging, storage, consumer misuse (not abuse). Pretty much what we hope for from a reputable supplier.
(I'll spare the details but assume other components can't make a consumer-proof battery catch fire.)
This has been evidenced by the London Fire Brigade and by various parties including me, studying all available imagery.Where are the stats for that? Do you have links? I've never seen a detailed breakdown of ebike fire causes. What are these assertions based on? I certainly hope they're not just opinions from parties with vested interests. Was there anyone present at that meeting representing the interests of kit conversioners? If so, who? If we're not represented, why aren't we?
From my cold head hands!
You will need to do your own digging I am afraid.
The meeting was arranged and chaired by the Bicycle Association of Great Britain who are eagerly trying to change the public opinion of "Dangerous eBikes". Yes we do have vested interests, we are very much trying to stop the incidence of these catastrophic fires and reduce their effect on the industry.
As a matter of interest we are not anti kits, just anti dangerous kits.
https://www.bicycleassociation.org.uk/
Have a look on their site, there is a lot of useful information regarding the problem and possible remedies that you may find of interest. Membership is open to anyone in the industry, manufacturer or retailer. I am sure that as a Kit Manufacturer or Retailer you would be most welcome.
I still am a member of the All Party Parliamentary Group for Walking and Cycling. I no longer am involved in lobbying outside being and active member of the BAGB. I was Chairman and a founding member of the British Electric Bicycle Association and helped merge into the BAGB as the cost of lobbying and the time it takes was too much for a small group. BAGB are an absolutely first class organisation doing a massive amount for the industry as a whole.
All the best, David
The problem for me is that because SOME people act stupidly, everyone has to lose freedom to act as free people who may wish to make some changes to their bicycle. It is fundamentally wrong to tie everyone up in legislation and regulation when they wish to act in ordinary ways. Government should stay right out of our lives as far as is possible. However, politicians in general and some parties in particular seek to intervene at every opportunity that presents itself.Who is this lobbyist and what does he usually lobby for?
I fear the wind has changed direction, and we're heading slowly and inexorably towards the rocks for an inevitable sinking of kit conversions as we know them. Does sound to me like the only "repairs" allowed may be by way of replacement of certified compatible modules, as opposed to inexpensive component level repairs we see so often here on this forum. Bloody wasteful and very ungreen!
Taking the logic of - harm has befallen foolish people therefore we must at once ban the activities that preceded that harm, we would be looking at banning a vast array of ordinary activities and freedoms. If the logic of legislating for harm reduction is taken to its logical conclusion, no one would be allowed ride a bicycle on the roads at all. People are killed every year bicycling on roads, hundreds of them. Certainly far more than have been killed in e-bike fires. No one would be allowed to walk on a cliff path unless it was securely fenced. All water sports would be banned, roads would be fenced off from pavements lest an unwise pedestrian stepped into the path of a vehicle, alcohol would be outlawed, and no one would be allowed to open a window lest anyone fell out. You may say that these examples are specious and go too far, I don't agree. The motive to ban is a serious problem.
I note that in the listing of the Argos cheap e-bike the suppliers go to some lengths to WARN the buyers about certain hazardous actions, such as charging a hot battery or swapping chargers. THAT IS ENOUGH WARNING in my opinion. When I bought my conversion from a very small business near Durham, the chap who did the work made sure I understood how to look after the kit and issued warnings about dangerous practices. He included a sheet of paper with do's and don'ts laid out clearly.
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