Battery Fires

[Ghost1951]

Accidents cost all of us, not just the loss of the devices, but also the on-going cost of hospital treatment, repairs to the building etc.
Would you agree that government is responsible to set standards not only to protect life but also to prevent accidents? You would normally buy your battery and charger together, from the same supplier. The cost of your battery remains pretty much the same, with or without the enhancement in fireproofing. So where is the problem?

No - I am a libertarian.

I should be free to do what I like as long as I don't harm people through deliberate acts or negligence. If I do harm people, they have and should have the right to pursue me for compensation or in criminal matters, including criminal negligence, punishment. I don't in ANY way want to see objects on banned lists. I want to see people who harm others by misuse punished severely.

Besides - official and judicial attitudes are frequently very lax in other areas such as road safety. It has only been very recently that significant numbers of serious sentences have been handed out for causing death and injury on the roads. I well remember a really shocking case which moved me to write to a judge in very colourful terms after he handed down a non-custodial sentence to a driver who had killed three cyclists while driving at nearly twice the speed limit in North Tyneside. His sentencing remarks blathered on about how he would never forget what he had done and it would serve no purpose to put him in custody. I think he got a three year driving ban and a few hundred pounds fine.

I wonder how many cyclists will be killed this week by road traffic driven by careless fools?

There are moves now to ban people from having historical artefacts like swords on their walls. Why? Because in some cities, utter riff raff and scum run about with sword like objects doing harm. What next? Banning hammers? We have already banned lock knives. I used a lock knife all the time for many years. If you want to work with a knife at some serious job, on the farm or garden or anywhere else, it had better be a lock knife or you will soon end up with a mangled hand when the unlock type closes on your fingers.

Its the British way - some absolute moron, or vile criminal uses some inanimate object to do harm and in a fit of self indulgent, indignant outrage, politicians ban the object that was misused. Anything but really doing anything about the sub-humans who cause the problem.

 

[Woosh]

No - I am a libertarian.

I should be free to do what I like as long as I don't harm people through deliberate acts or negligence. If I do harm people, they have and should have the right to pursue me for compensation or in criminal matters, including criminal negligence, punishment. I don't in ANY way want to see objects on banned lists. I want to see people who harm others by misuse punished severely.

Besides - official and judicial attitudes are frequently very lax in other areas such as road safety. It has only been very recently that significant numbers of serious sentences have been handed out for causing death and injury on the roads. I well remember a really shocking case which moved me to write to a judge in very colourful terms after he handed down a non-custodial sentence to a driver who had killed three cyclists while driving at nearly twice the speed limit in North Tyneside. His sentencing remarks blathered on about how he would never forget what he had done and it would serve no purpose to put him in custody. I think he got a three year driving ban and a few hundred pounds fine.

There are moves now to ban people from having historical artefacts like swords on their walls. Why? Because in some cities, utter riff raff and scum run about with sword like objects doing harm. What next? Banning hammers? We have already banned lock knives. I used a lock knife all the time for many years. If you want to work with a knife at some serious job, on the farm or garden or anywhere else, it had better be a lock knife or you will soon end up with a mangled hand when the unlock type closes on your fingers.

Its the British way - some absolute moron, of vile criminal uses some inanimate object to do harm and in a fit of self indulgent, indignant outrage, politicians ban the object that was misused. Anything but really doing anything about the sub-humans who cause the problem.

A few months back, wheezyrider posted the schematics for the Bosch 36V charger for their drill battery. The charger has a passive circuit to stop the charging if the battery's temperature sensor detects an anomalous condition. Such circuit helps reducing the risk of fire. Some of the Phylion e-bike batteries have similar arrangement. I think Halfords used them in the past.
I reckon any new battery legislation will be imposed on the importers and wholesalers like the 1/1/2016 modifications to ebike regulations. Users need not be affected. The alternative is we do nothing, e-bike fires will continue to make to headlines and a lot of e-bike dealers and importers will fold. We will end up with higher prices and far fewer choices.

 

[matthewslack]

Yes Matthew, but that right to do what you want depends on being able to have access to the materials you need and that they have not been crippled by canbus handshaking.. I think it might be true that your excellent and extensive travels by solar charged e-bike, depend on you being able to purchase and modify the electrical systems involved. I think the legislative moves being proposed would interfere with your ability to do that - or they might do.

I've actually subverted my Shimano system, which gives me much amusement! Nothing more complicated than two big diodes, and having to carry around a Shimano battery as a passenger, and never letting it be flat. But don't tell them...

For my level of interest and knowledge, I'm not seeing any immediately worrying changes on the horizon. I can buy cells and a BMS if I want to play with batteries, and MOSFETs and microcontrollers if I want to play with controllers, and the laws of physics are beyond the reach of legislators, so my motors will continue to work.

I'm in favour of charger connector standards that prevent accidental wrong voltage errors, and higher level of protection and detection within battery packs. I like the much better charge % indication that is possible when a 'calorie counter' in the battery can talk to the display instead of trying to infer from a continuously changing output voltage. It would be nice if such comms were standardised, but it is understandable in a competitive market why they are not.

Back to the laws of physics: there is nothing to stop one from combining a KT controller with the mechanicals of a posh mid-drive motor, and a generic battery. It's just a sensored, brushless motor. I'd lose the torque sensor, but have a working bike.

 

[Ghost1951]

Back to the laws of physics: there is nothing to stop one from combining a KT controller with the mechanicals of a posh mid-drive motor, and a generic battery. It's just a sensored, brushless motor. I'd lose the torque sensor, but have a working bike.

I am full of admiration for your journeys and 'can do' attitude, Matthew. You show the way to make the most of retirement with your Scottish journeys and having done some of those routes fifty years ago on a motorcycle-combination, I remember the hills!

 

[chris_n]

Another conversion, fire brigade say ebike fires occur every other day in London.

E-bikes: Battery fire destroys family home days before Christmas

One occupant escaped through the front door and two others were forced to climb on to the roof.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[guerney]

Another conversion, fire brigade say ebike fires occur every other day in London.

E-bikes: Battery fire destroys family home days before Christmas

One occupant escaped through the front door and two others were forced to climb on to the roof.

www.bbc.co.uk

Batteries with BMSs which discontinue charging at detection of high temperature and/or other problems, can't turn up too soon - I might hold off buying a new battery for awhile, in case they're compatible and reasonably priced. They won't be will they?

 

[chris_n]

Batteries with BMSs which discontinue charging at detection of high temperature and/or other problems, can't turn up too soon - I might hold off buying a new battery for awhile, in case they're compatible and reasonably priced. They won't be will they?

A couple of thermistors isn't going to cost much but I somehow doubt that is the route that will be followed / legislated.

 

[StuartsProjects]

Another conversion, fire brigade say ebike fires occur every other day in London.

Yes, but thats London.

Read this thread and you could get the impression that the risk of an eBike fire outside London is so small you can forget about it.

 

[saneagle]

You guys just reminded me that I left my bike on charge in the garage since 15:00 (9hrs). It should be nicely balanced now.

 

[Ghost1951]

Yes, but thats London.

Read this thread and you could get the impression that the risk of an eBike fire outside London is so small you can forget about it.

There is no more risk of an sensibly managed ebike burning your house down than there is of a computer or a mobile phone doing it. The risk is entirely down to stupid people doing ridiculously stupid things. And YES - it is becoming a problem in London where there must be more stupid people doing more stupid things. Everybody with an ounce of sense can read the data on the web. Either local fire authorities outside London are run by lazy, fools, who don't keep important records, or they don't see much of the problem - not enough to even categorise the ebikes as an issue.

The predominant causes of house fires by a VERY long way are cooking appliances, smoking and candles. Facts are facts - no matter how much bleating is done by Chicken Licken, battery control types.

When my dad was going a bit loopy at the age of 89, just before he died, I used to visit him every day to check all was well. I turned up at his house one day just before Christmas, and he showed me very proudly a super duper nativity scene he had made. It consisted of a cardboard box fashioned into a cave, lined with orange coloured cellophane film, some plastic figures of the Holy Family and a donkey or two, and a powered up, forty watt incandescent bulb tucked away at the back of it. There was the unmistakable smell of hot cardboard about the place. When I exploded in indignation at this incendiary device he had invented in an act of reckless madness, he retorted :

"All you care about is your inheritance."

" Bloody right," I said. "If the fire brigade came in here, they'd call the police to take you away."

There were at least two other idiotic things he did in his last couple of months, that could have burned the place down. He cut a live wire with a swiss army knife and blew a chunk out of the blade, and he put a wheat bag in his microwave for twenty minutes so that it actually went on fire. In dealing with this, he then managed to drop it on a carpet after taking it out of the microwave and burning his hand.

People start fires by doing dumb things. Some of them have the excuse of great age and dementia. More of them have no excuse other than total wanton stupidity. Nobody here has had their ebike go on fire. A large number of members have used kits and batteries bought from Chinese vendors. The only fire reported here that I know of out of a large number of members, was caused by a person accidentally puncturing a cell while dismantling an old battery.

 

[Woosh]

There is no more risk of an sensibly managed ebike burning your house down than there is of a computer or a mobile phone doing it.

Some ebike chargers run at 4A * 48V, They produce a lot more heat that your mobile phone or laptops. The risk rises exponentially with temperature. If you want a safe bike, keep the power low and never use a fast unintelligent charger.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

I have an old Oven I made from a Smeg cooker so basically a double skin S/S steel box including the door with fire proof heat insulation in between the Two layers of metal .

I used to just stick it on a large Folker gas ring to cook baguettes at shows .
The fire officers where happy for me to use it I was just about to throw it on the scrap.
As it worked but not great with no automatic thermostat Very hands on .
but it got another Two years use out of a scrap 20 year old Smeg oven maybe it will live on !

I am thinking along the lines now of repurposing it for my planned work shop to charge battery’s in when I want to leave them unattended.

Although under the fire rated Gazebo in the garden is probably the best option when it’s not to cold .

Does a battery need to be in a vented place when Charging ?

As I just worked out my battery from an ex display Bird bike has internal problems so I may just try harvest any decent cells , and fix the one a blew in my other post.

Just need to design a way of getting 240 electric supply into it that will also contain a fire a very hot one .
I will do a post on it and see what you experienced guys think .

 

[Woosh]

Does a battery need to be in a vented place when Charging ?

yes. The danger comes mainly from the smoke, so it makes sense to keep the battery in a ventilated space.

 

[Ghost1951]

Some ebike chargers run at 4A * 48V, They produce a lot more heat that your mobile phone or laptops. The risk rises exponentially with temperature. If you want a safe bike, keep the power low and never use a fast unintelligent charger.

Absolutely right. I have two chargers one for my 10s 6p battery which runs at 3 amps and one for my small Argos, 8.5 Ahr bike battery which runs at 2 amps. I never use the higher rate charger with the smaller battery.

I never charge them when I am not watching over them and I frequently put a hand on the battery case to feel for any kind of unexpected warmth.

My laptop and my phone both heat up when on charge to a greater extent than my ebikes.

 

[Ghost1951]

I am thinking along the lines now of repurposing it for my planned work shop to charge battery’s in when I want to leave them unattended.

I don't claim any electrical engineering qualifications , but I would be very careful if I was going to dismantle a battery. There was a chap on here a few days ago who accidentally punctured a cell while doing that which caused a fire, and he suffered burns to his hand and his leg which put him in hospital for a week.

 

[Ghost1951]

Many of the very problematic 'delivery franken bikes' being seen by the London Fire Brigade are not only dangerously cobbled together often with multiple batteries in parallel, but they are also worked very hard with big motors which heat up the batteries to dangerous levels and then they are being docked onto fast chargers which heat them up much more. This kind of very dangerous abuse is a world apart from sensible people using a kit of parts put together in a sensible way and used with a properly matched charger.

London Fire Brigade ran a special information event for delivery riders, which sort of backs up what I have been saying about some of their bikes. Many of us have seen these bikes - they are not normal e-bikes in my experience.

Amazon and Deliveroo have "recognised the part they can play" when it comes to e-bike safety says London Fire Brigade

The London Fire Brigade (LFB) says Amazon and Deliveroo have "recognised the part they can play" when it comes to supporting its #ChargeSafe campaign, which aims to raise awareness about how people can reduce the risk of fire from e-bikes and e-scooters. The brigade says that, thanks to their...

ebiketips.road.cc

 

[matthewslack]

What a proper battery standard would do, and perhaps UL2271 has already done in the US, is guarantee that the battery is safe no matter what the user does to it. (Perhaps excluding falling in a canal...remember that thread a while ago?)

The BMS should limit discharge and charge currents, monitor temperatures and each cell group voltage as well as total voltage, and turn off if any exceedance is detected. The design should have sufficient margin relative to absolute maximum cell capabilities, a quality of construction that is electrically and mechanically adequate, a level of water resistance suitable for outdoor use and so on. The charge port should not accept an incorrect charger voltage.

None of the above is difficult and when integrated into mass production facilities, need not add much cost.

The low standard and vulnerability to user error of cheap ebike batteries is unthinkable in the electric car world.

 

[Nealh]

Without pictoral evidence for the London( Diy bike) fire , one can likely summise it was a typical 1kw lash up job .
Again the fact that the fire occured during the charge process one can only assume an incorrect charge procedure being used.

Practically every UK bike fire we hear about involves 1kw conversions with what one assumes a 48v or 52v battery. These guys simply have no idea of what they are doing especially with the charging process.

 

[chris_n]

These guys simply have no idea of what they are doing especially with the charging process.

Nor should they have to. Consumer / user level goods need to be idiot proof.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

I don't claim any electrical engineering qualifications , but I would be very careful if I was going to dismantle a battery. There was a chap on here a few days ago who accidentally punctured a cell while doing that which caused a fire, and he suffered burns to his hand and his leg which put him in hospital for a week.

I have an old Oven I made from a Smeg cooker so basically a double skin S/S steel box including the door with fire proof heat insulation in between the Two layers of metal .

I used to just stick it on a large Folker gas ring to cook baguettes at shows .
The fire officers where happy for me to use it I was just about to throw it on the scrap.
As it worked but not great with no automatic thermostat Very hands on .
but it got another Two years use out of a scrap 20 year old Smeg oven maybe it will live on !

I am thinking along the lines now of repurposing it for my planned work shop to charge battery’s in when I want to leave them unattended.

Although under the fire rated Gazebo in the garden is probably the best option when it’s not to cold .

Does a battery need to be in a vented place when Charging ?

As I just worked out my battery from an ex display Bird bike has internal problems so I may just try harvest any decent cells , and fix the one a blew in my other post.

Just need to design a way of getting 240 electric supply into it that will also contain a fire a very hot one .
I will do a post on it and see what you experienced guys think .

No what I am getting at is a sealed fire proof box any use for charging battery’s ?

I e . Do they need air flow around them so they do not over heat or can an old oven work as a safe place to charge things that may be a bit suspect , or if you wanted to put 5v through a cell group then go out and leave it say for 5 to six hours or less Or over night .

or would you need to vent say through an old chimney stack ?

So if it did catch fire any fire would be contained And any smoke could go out through an old chimney . Which would then also be an air flow vent