Battery Fires

[Ghost1951]

I do agree that the hyping is bad for everyone using an e-bike but the problem with dodgy batteries, untested, unmonitored fast chargers and twin battery kits that are lashed together with gaffer tapes and terminal strips that I see in Southend High Street need to be eliminated as soon as. Batteries need test approval stickers, cables must be waterproof and certified types to prevent fires.

I suspect that you would like mandatory canbus control over batteries and systems.

Most of us would hate that. It ties everyone into the built in obsolescence that we see in the rather pitiful posts from people who bought an expensive e-bike that has now got a dead battery and either cant afford a replacement proprietary one from the manufacturer because it is at ;east twice the price of a generic Chinese one, or they can't even get one because the manufacturer has discontinued support.

I am sure your e-bikes are useful and good, and I am also sure that you don't like having to compete with the competition on Amazon, Argos and elsewhere that might be shut down by more control of the supply chain advocated by fire obsessives.

 

[Woosh]

I suspect that you would like mandatory canbus control over batteries and systems.

yes. It does not have to be brand specific but similar to what exists in public charging stations.

 

[Ghost1951]

The fact is that Lenny isn't some noble whistle blower, he is just repeating and magnifying complete hype put about by some journalists, because that level of journalism is all about complete hype.

Lithium battery fires occur when batteries are abused and misused. Nonetheless the numbers of such fires is absolutely tiny in the overall context of home fires. This fact is inarguable outside of a lunatic asylum.

 

[Woosh]

I am also sure that you don't like having to compete with the competition on Amazon, Argos and elsewhere that might be shut down by more control of the supply chain advocated by fire obsessives.

Correct. They can avoid expensive insurance and just disappear after a big accident, I can't. It's the same with direct buying from Ali or offshore websites. On the long run, stricter standards will benefit everyone.

 

[Ghost1951]

Correct. They can avoid expensive insurance and just disappear after a big accident, I can't. It's the same with direct buying from Ali or offshore websites. On the long run, stricter standards will benefit everyone.

No - what you want is restraint of trade, and you want it for your own commercial benefit.

What most e-bike buyers want is a product they can afford that works and is not locked up with fancy canbus garbage that stops them being able to repair and replace failed parts as time goes by.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

Hi I have been flicking this thread .

can I ask if some one has a battery workshop which Fire Extinguisher would be required or are there any that work on a thermal fire I am assuming a powder one or fire blanket may help slow it down ? But will not put it out.
And are we saying depriving the fire of oxygen will make no difference to putting it out ?
Because it’s a chemical reaction ?

 

[Woosh]

No - what you want is restraint of trade, and you want it for your own commercial benefit.

What most e-bike buyers want is a product they can afford that works and is not locked up with fancy canbus garbage that stops them being able to repair and replace failed parts as time goes by.

we have similar debates with household electrical appliances, cars, foods, water, healthcare etc. Standards are cheaper to implement than what it would cost to insure your health or your house. Just imagine you can fit any consumer units, mains outlets, switches, gas appliances, boilers, heat pumps etc would you feel safe? would insurance companies still compete to give you competitive quotes?

 

[Peter.Bridge]

It's hard to reconcile those figures with the OPSS analysis

Fires in e-bikes and e-scooters – 2022 and 2023

www.gov.uk

Especially since 176 out of the 199 fires reported to the OPSS were reported by LFB, which says to me other Fire Brigades are not methodically recording and reporting this information

 

[matthewslack]

Hi I have been flicking this thread .

can I ask if some one has a battery workshop which Fire Extinguisher would be required or are there any that work on a thermal fire I am assuming a powder one or fire blanket may help slow it down ? But will not put it out.
And are we saying depriving the fire of oxygen will make no difference to putting it out ?
Because it’s a chemical reaction ?

Have a look online at 'class D fire' and 'lithium battery fire'.

For managing the risk, work on the basis you will not be able to put the fire out, it can grow very quickly, and so some other strategy is needed. Don't fool yourself into thinking all you need is the right extinguisher.

In commercial terms, with Health and Safety at Work Act considerations, a proper 'suitable and sufficient' risk assessment would likely lead to such a workshop being isolated from other buildings, with enhanced evacuation routes and procedures to match. Not on the ground floor beneath offices or living accommodation.

 

[matthewslack]

And remember that in fire FIGHTING terms, your house doesn't matter. The primary object is saving lives and preventing injury, not putting the fire out.

Once everyone is out, if it is easier to contain the fire and let a battery at the heart of it burn out, that is what will happen.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

View attachment 61467

"Show me the bodies" was the argument used by the civil servant that pushed back against the numerous calls for tighter regulation around external cladding and insulation prior to Grenfell.

 

[matthewslack]

"Show me the bodies" was the argument used by the civil servant that pushed back against the numerous calls for tighter regulation around external cladding and insulation prior to Grenfell.

Grenfell has a lot to teach us.

The BBC 'Grenfell Tower Inquiry Podcast' is worth a weekend of anyone's time, and especially those with an interest in safety, professional standards and professional responsibility. Just a read of the episode titles is enough to enrage.

 

[Ghost1951]

It's hard to reconcile those figures with the OPSS analysis

Fires in e-bikes and e-scooters – 2022 and 2023

www.gov.uk

View attachment 61473

View attachment 61474


Especially since 176 out of the 199 fires reported to the OPSS were reported by LFB, which says to me other Fire Brigades are not methodically recording and reporting this information

Or that the London Fire Brigade actually has a large number of franken bikes which are doing hard duty delivering Just Eat and other such packages in the area. London is NOT typical at all of the rest of the nation either in its cultural, demographic make up or any other.

I would not think at all that fire brigade departments in other areas - if they were facing an avalanche of e-bike fires, would neglect to make their local population aware of a serious issue. Why would they not?

Why is it that when googling causes of fires in the UK, the two top links of relevance which had a table showing the percentage causes of fires did not mention batteries or e-bikes, if they were a serious issue?

We all know that abused batteries can ignite. So can any number of things and the actual facts are that in percentage terms, cooking, smoking, electrical supply faults and household appliances are mentioned as causing significant numbers of fires and e-bikes are not mentioned at all. These things mentioned cause fires in the thousands.

 

[Peter.Bridge]

Or that the London Fire Brigade actually has a large number of franken bikes which are doing hard duty delivering Just Eat and other such packages in the area. London is NOT typical at all of the rest of the nation either in its cultural, demographic make up or any other.

I would not think at all that fire brigade departments in other areas - if they were facing an avalanche of e-bike fires, would neglect to make their local population aware of a serious issue. Why would they not?

Why is it that when googling causes of fires in the UK, the two top links of relevance which had a table showing the percentage causes of fires did not mention batteries or e-bikes, if they were a serious issue?

We all know that abused batteries can ignite. So can any number of things and the actual facts are that in percentage terms, cooking, smoking, electrical supply faults and household appliances are mentioned as causing significant numbers of fires and e-bikes are not mentioned at all. These things mentioned cause fires in the thousands.

So you are really saying it is credible that in 2023 there were 176 e-bike/scooter fires in London (pop 9 million) and 23 in the rest of the UK (68 million - 9 million = 59 million) ?

 

[matthewslack]

Most risk assessment processes combine two factors to 'calculate' risk: frequency and seriousness of consequences.

High seriousness is generally accepted as demanding high mitigation regardless of frequency. Lithium battery fires sit right there.

 

[Ghost1951]

Maybe we need legislation to ban matches, ban lighters, ban open fires and stoves, ban candles and ban everything that might go on fire if left in the hands of a lunatic .

We should be like North Korea where the government give you a list of what you can do.

By the time I was five in 1956, it was my job to light the coal fire in the morning. My mother instructed me in the seriousness of the job and the need to be careful in lighting fires. It was fine. I knew it was a serious job and I did it properly. Now we have people here who advocate that adults should not have access to ordinary things in case some utter half wit does something stupid. There is a creeping infantalisation of the population going on. It will lead to a helpless population of useless drones and helpless wretches.

Unlike most of you, I tend towards the idea that natural selection was a wonderful thing. It is what designed and shaped human kind.

 

[Ghost1951]

So you are really saying it is credible that in 2023 there were 176 e-bike/scooter fires in London (pop 9 million) and 23 in the rest of the UK (68 million - 9 million = 59 million) ?

No -

I am saying that the number of fires in other areas is insignificant , and that the London figures may not be typical.

The alternative hypothesis to that is that fire departments in the country outside London are run by indolent, incompetent wretches who need to be fired.

EDIT:

It is interesting perhaps that the only post reporting a fire affecting a member of this form is one I read this week from a person who punctured a cell while dismantling an old battery. The gentleman concerned fully accepted that he caused the problem himself by misadventure.

My evidence that no one has reported a fire of their own battery besides the gentleman I mentioned, is based on words by saneagle who has been here for a long time. To the best of my knowledge, some time ago, he said that as far as he knew, this was the case.

 

[matthewslack]

Maybe we need legislation to ban matches, ban lighters, ban open fires and stoves, ban candles and ban everything that might go on fire if left in the hands of a lunatic .

We should be like North Korea where the government give you a list of what you can do.

By the time I was five in 1956, it was my job to light the coal fire in the morning. My mother instructed me in the seriousness of the job and the need to be careful in lighting fires. It was fine. I knew it was a serious job and I did it properly. Now we have people here who advocate that adults should not have access to ordinary things in case some utter half wit does something stupid. There is a creeping infantalisation of the population going on. It will lead to a helpless population of useless drones and helpless wretches.

Unlike most of you, I tend towards the idea that natural selection was a wonderful thing. It is what designed and shaped human kind.

There are worse legislative regimes!

I think I have this the right way round....wisdom from an elder, years ago, with apologies to France if it is taking liberties:

In England, you can do anything unless there is a law forbidding it. In France you can do nothing unless a law permits it.

Sure, things are tighter these days, but within the bounds of ones own home, where noone else can get hurt, we are still free to do what we like to a large extent.

 

[Woosh]

Maybe we need legislation to ban matches, ban lighters, ban open fires and stoves, ban candles and ban everything that might go on fire if left in the hands of a lunatic .

We should be like North Korea where the government give you a list of what you can do.

By the time I was five in 1956, it was my job to light the coal fire in the morning. My mother instructed me in the seriousness of the job and the need to be careful in lighting fires. It was fine. I knew it was a serious job and I did it properly. Now we have people here who advocate that adults should not have access to ordinary things in case some utter half wit does something stupid. There is a creeping infantalisation of the population going on. It will lead to a helpless population of useless drones and helpless wretches.

Unlike most of you, I tend towards the idea that natural selection was a wonderful thing. It is what designed and shaped human kind.

Accidents cost all of us, not just the loss of the devices, but also the on-going cost of hospital treatment, repairs to the building etc.
Would you agree that government is responsible to set standards not only to protect life but also to prevent accidents? You would normally buy your battery and charger together, from the same supplier. The cost of your battery remains pretty much the same, with or without the enhancement in fireproofing. So where is the problem?

 

[Ghost1951]

There are worse legislative regimes!

I think I have this the right way round....wisdom from an elder, years ago, with apologies to France if it is taking liberties:

In England, you can do anything unless there is a law forbidding it. In France you can do nothing unless a law permits it.

Sure, things are tighter these days, but within the bounds of ones own home, where noone else can get hurt, we are still free to do what we like to a large extent.

There are worse legislative regimes!

I think I have this the right way round....wisdom from an elder, years ago, with apologies to France if it is taking liberties:

In England, you can do anything unless there is a law forbidding it. In France you can do nothing unless a law permits it.

Sure, things are tighter these days, but within the bounds of ones own home, where noone else can get hurt, we are still free to do what we like to a large extent.

Yes Matthew, but that right to do what you want depends on being able to have access to the materials you need and that they have not been crippled by canbus handshaking.. I think it might be true that your excellent and extensive travels by solar charged e-bike, depend on you being able to purchase and modify the electrical systems involved. I think the legislative moves being proposed would interfere with your ability to do that - or they might do.