Battery Fires

saneagle

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does it mean that it has two motors?
It sounds like it. Two complete systems.

They'll now change the standard to include a requirement that all EAPCs have to be built in such a way that they can't be modified, like they tried before with the clause about tamperproofing, or they could make it illegal to modify a proprietary ebike.
 

AntonyC

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So to paraphrase the CSA briefed the IO, the IO examined the charger and battery and briefed the Coroner who officially concluded they probably didn't match. Bike chargers and batteries of 36V and 48V look very similar before they're burnt, although in this case the parts may have been distinctive or the labels may have survived.

There's nothing to say the conclusion's wrong but the probable explanation sounds as though it could be an assumption, which would delay recognising a true cause that's any different, such as a sub-standard BMS not cutting off the correct charger when the first cell hits HVC. Fire services have updated their ebike fire reporting but it would still be useful to have more detail.
 
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AntonyC

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Who was it who tried to introduce a tamperproofing clause and through which means? It may have a place but I think its proponents need to be aware of better safety measures, and would we want to be driving tamperproof horsecarts these days?
 

guerney

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So to paraphrase the CSA briefed the IO, the IO examined the charger and battery and briefed the Coroner who officially concluded they probably didn't match. Bike chargers and batteries of 36V and 48V look very similar before they're burnt, although in this case the parts may have been distinctive or the labels may have survived.

There's nothing to say the conclusion's wrong but the probable explanation sounds as though it could be an assumption, which would delay recognising a true cause that's any different, such as a sub-standard BMS not cutting off the correct charger when the first cell hits HVC. Fire services have updated their ebike fire reporting but it would still be useful to have more detail.
Or perhaps charger component(s) failure causing sudden output of high voltage? I recall @Nealh saying one of his did that but he caught it early - does anyone know how often that happens? Should I solder on one of these to cut voltage at 42.2V?

https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/1005006950914995.html

Is there a convenient and cheap gizmo somewhere out there which switches on power supply upon detection of a user defined voltage? If so, I could cobble together a second alarm to sound at 42.2V, and use with my Ebike Battery Fire Expulserating PreTerminator™®©℠, which I never charge my battery without:

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/home-ruination-by-ebike-battery-fire-expulserating-preterminator%E2%84%A2%C2%AE%C2%A9%E2%84%A0.46934/


Physical evidence would likely be completely destroyed of course, but there ought to be receipts emailed listing basic specs of anything bought new online such as the charger, or more complete specs via links through the user account of the platform it was bought from, for particularly grittily warty and unpleasantly determined hard boiled gumshoes to find.
 
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guerney

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The cheap convenient gizmo is that same item, it could either cut the charger (NC contact) or power a second alarm (NO contact). But recall saneagle's wise words, basically you need to be sure that safety gear's reliable.
Aha! Yes, thank you, I realised the same gizmo could do that a short while ago, silly me.

Re: safety gear reliability: The Ebike Battery Fire Expulserating PreTerminator™®©℠ is separately mains powered, and situated a safe distance away, with only the heat probe making contact with the battery via a long wire - that failing wouldn't be much of a worry. What shape would failure of that gizmo take? Puff of magic smoke? A small fire? Either would set off the smoke alarm. I can cope with anything but explosion. Of course by the time igniteable smoke is produced by the battery, it's far too late to do anything but run.
 
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saneagle

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So to paraphrase the CSA briefed the IO, the IO examined the charger and battery and briefed the Coroner who officially concluded they probably didn't match. Bike chargers and batteries of 36V and 48V look very similar before they're burnt, although in this case the parts may have been distinctive or the labels may have survived.

There's nothing to say the conclusion's wrong but the probable explanation sounds as though it could be an assumption, which would delay recognising a true cause that's any different, such as a sub-standard BMS not cutting off the correct charger when the first cell hits HVC. Fire services have updated their ebike fire reporting but it would still be useful to have more detail.
NCM bikes are 48v, so if the wrong charger was used it wouldn’t be a problem unless the guy had the idea to fast charge.
 

saneagle

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Who was it who tried to introduce a tamperproofing clause and through which means? It may have a place but I think its proponents need to be aware of better safety measures, and would we want to be driving tamperproof horsecarts these days?
IIRC, it's been written into EN15194.
 

AntonyC

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IIRC, it's been written into EN15194.
Thanks for that, did some digging and LEVA-EU have this to say about anti-tampering:

"It has also appeared that the anti-tampering measures in the standard need to be improved. The wording is unclear and the requirements themselves go against EU policies. For instance, manufacturers should give repair and maintenance information access to independent operators, quod non in EN 15194. Also, there is a clear policy trend to safeguard repairability of products to improve their carbon footprint. The current text goes against that principle as well."
https://leva-eu.com/machinery-directive-causes-standardization-issues/

EN50604/A1 proposes a 'Manufacturer specific communication circuit' as part of the battery system interface. IMO this contributes to reducing battery fires by ensuring the use of electric bicycles as transport dies out.
 
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chris_n

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EN50604/A1 proposes a 'Manufacturer specific communication circuit' as part of the battery system interface. IMO this contributes to reducing battery fires by ensuring the use of electric bicycles as transport dies out.
ALL of the thousands of Ebikes I see round here have 'Manufacturer specific' communications between the battery / charger / bike. Many of these bikes owned by locals are used as transport (maybe because it is safe to leave it outside the shop / restaurant etc) on a daily basis.
 

Ghost1951

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What a lot of old bo ll ox all that regulation is.

Why don't they just let people alone and we can all just take responsibility for what we do. These people in politics are a worthless horde of drones, sucking the life out of everything.
 

matthewslack

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Because people don't take responsibility, they take advantage!

I'm all for minimum necessary level, but I don't want to go back to no seatbelts.
 

AntonyC

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ALL of the thousands of Ebikes I see round here have 'Manufacturer specific' communications between the battery / charger / bike. Many of these bikes owned by locals are used as transport (maybe because it is safe to leave it outside the shop / restaurant etc) on a daily basis.
My sarcasm went a bit overboard perhaps but impediments to charging curtail the utility of ebikes and that must affect their uptake.
Anyway, what's the public's take on battery fires where you are (presuming still Austria) and how are the authorities responding? It's been said that our fires are concentrated in the low cost delivery sector and that European countries run theirs differently.
 

chris_n

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My sarcasm went a bit overboard perhaps but impediments to charging curtail the utility of ebikes and that must affect their uptake.
Anyway, what's the public's take on battery fires where you are (presuming still Austria) and how are the authorities responding? It's been said that our fires are concentrated in the low cost delivery sector and that European countries run theirs differently.
The only reports I have seen regarding bike battery fires was one shop in a city a few years ago where what you might call conventional ebikes are used. Up here in the mountains hub drive bikes don't exist and mid motor conversions are extremely rare ( I haven't actually seen one). All of the Ebikes here are Bosch, Yamaha or Shimano.
I have a friend who owns a bike shop with about 50 hire bikes who occasionally works with another shop that has over 100 bikes, another hire shop in our village has 20 bikes, there is another unmanned hire space with 10 bikes and many of the hotels either have their own fleet of bikes or use a delivery service that has over 500 bikes. In high season most of these bikes are in use most days often returned with fairlylow batteries, none of these have had any fires.
I don't know about private delivery sectors in the cities but can say the post service uses many small road legal electrically propelled delivery vehicles in larger flatter towns / cities.
The other big difference here is you can ride a moped at 14 so all of the Surron type bikes are registered / insured (you can only get a number plate by taking your insurance docs to the local government office which supplies them) and therefore used properly.
 
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chris_n

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[offtopic]
Would you kindly direct me to a thread with many pictures from your rides and/or Youtube vids?
[/offtopic]
There are a few rides and pics around this area of this thread.