Are e-bikes with an off-road switch legal to ride on UK roads under 15.5mph?

[flecc]

The whole concept of riding an e-bike slower than a normal human powered bicycle whether on or off road is ludicrous. I understand that inputting human power on top of electric assist will gain me some speed,

It's only slower than some Lance Armstrong wannabee cyclists in Britain think sensible. Throughout most of Europe unpowered cyclists ride relaxed in a saner manner at well under 15 mph and more like 10 to 12 mph in many countries.

And in the days afer WW2 when most of Britain cycled for commuting and utility purposes, they too rode in leisurely fashion at 10 to 12 mph. It was only the death of utility cycling in the 1960s and '70s leaving just the sport riding brigade that led to the current British hard riding habit.
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[the_killjoy]

What if a pre 30 year old vehicle had a similar engine replacing the original, as often happens with rebuilds. Surely the fact that an engine is newer would not in itself affect the exemption.

 

[flecc]

What if a pre 30 year old vehicle had a similar engine replacing the original, as often happens with rebuilds. Surely the fact that an engine is newer would not in itself affect the exemption.

Its the drastic change of motive unit type and the date of that that enforces the change. The change from petrol to electric means it becomes a different class of vehicle. The law says substantial change, and that certainly is substantial.
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[JOB100]

Some people have enough free time and energy to cycle an hour or more each way to work on an e-bike, but I, and many others will simply struggle. It isn't one rule fits all I'm afraid. Some people will be happy to pootle along at 10mph, but others want and need to go quicker with less effort. If you have a nice desk job with regular 9 - 5 hours, you have a lot of excess energy and more time to burn and you may even forego electric all together. For those in self employed physical jobs with long hours, or low pay you don't have the time or energy. How about those pushed out of the city centre due to high rent prices. The cycle industry may be happy with the status quo, but clearly all the speed demons aren't, and they also need to be accomodated. I don't want to travel fast for the sake of it by the way. I'm not obsessed with cycling faster than everyone else. And there's nothing wrong with it. Unless you aim to put these people back into cars. S-Pedelecs is a means of tackling this issue.

Can't these people not just use an electric car or moped if they want to go faster?. Simply because of traffic. You'd save money but then spend more time getting to work. Why not use public transport? You might save some time, but it costs a fortune. This is about improving quality of life, and for a lot of people, especially those in big cities, the solution is to reduce costs and time. If it means less unecessary gas guzzlers on the street, it has to be all round safer and better for all. I'll certainly give a 250w e-bike a go, but I'm at the point where I'm done with public transport after a few decades and looking to get a car.

 

[flecc]

The cycle industry may be happy with the status quo, but clearly all the speed demons aren't, and they also need to be accomodated.

But from government's point of view, they are acccomodated and always have been in both the UK and the EU. There's the two moped classes for example, for either just extra power or extra power plus speed. It's only those who want to pedal as well as travelling fast who are unhappy.

The S class is an anomaly amd it's gradually being more restricted to fit with the existing ones, for example the current EU intention to make full face helmets compulsory when riding them. As it is they have to be registered, number plated, insured, and they are very restricted in where they can be ridden. We're in the middle of the introduction of the new Q driving licence group for the low powered moped class and I fully expect that to be extended to the S class as well at some time. Why? Well it's a bit ridiculous that riding a moped at 28 mph demands CBT and a group P/AM driving licence, while the S class rider alongside at the same speed has no training or driving licence of any sort.
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[anotherkiwi]

The S class is an anomaly amd it's gradually being more restricted to fit with the existing ones, for example the current EU intention to make full face helmets compulsory when riding them.
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You mean that the current EU intention is to kill the S-pedelec class. I mean we can't have cheap, rapid, practical, healthy, green, individual transportation now can we... What would the world come to then?

Well it's a bit ridiculous that riding a moped at 28 mph demands CBT and a group P/AM driving licence, while the S class rider alongside at the same speed has no training or driving licence of any sort.
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Or a man in tights with a stupid bit of foam and plastic on his head pedaling like hell. And because he is up to speed who doesn't bother stopping at the lights. Or is riding four abreast with his mates, blocking rush hour traffic...

 

[anotherkiwi]

Common sense for a speed pedelec would be:

- same licence as for mopeds (from 14 yrs old) or at least the road code bit
- bike helmet for speed pedelecs without a throttle because it is a push bike after all
- an identifying plate of some sort without it being a full sized moped plate
- obligatory insurance
- use on bike paths limited to 25 kph or speed in vigor (in Spain lots of sections are at 5 kph - in mixed pedestrian/bike zones and 10 kph - at bike path intersections. In some towns bikes are limited to the same speed as cars - 30 kph (yes I have to be careful there...)
- top speed on the road limited to the same top speed as a push bike if it is a speed pedelec without a throttle
- the technical bits are all there - Schwalbe makes tyres that are certified to 75 kph, b+m and supernova have lights that are beyond adequate, hydraulic brakes provide adequate stopping power...

But as we all know common sense does not prevail in the EU. The proof in the pudding is the moped itself - in reality there are practically no mopeds left on the road and yet the moped legislation applies to 49.9cc two wheel vehicles of whatever type...

 

[flecc]

You mean that the current EU intention is to kill the S-pedelec class. I mean we can't have cheap, rapid, practical, healthy, green, individual transportation now can we... What would the world come to then?

It's a sad fact that regulation is the norm and deregulation scarcely exists. The EU is hardly alone in this, the UK government record is far worse as I've often pointed out, we have the EU to thank for easier regulation that the UK were prepared to grant us.

Those who think that Britain is best in this respect need to be reminded that it used to mean a 12 mph assist limit and absolute maximum of 200 watts, no tolerance above that. That really did kill e-bike sales and why we still lag so far behind Europe in adoption of pedelecs.
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[JOB100]

In an ideal world I would be happy to see s-pedelecs fall between non-regulated push bicycles and mopeds. They clearly are not mopeds. No where near the power or size or danger. However, I know there are plenty of dangerous non-maintained bicycles out there ridden by unconcious and untrained riders, and allowing one of these people on a 28mph machine certainly would be dangerous. Some sort of licensing, insurance and compulsory helmet use would be sensible. But at a lower level than mopeds. It's own individual category. The government may well consider people in this category catered for with mopeds, but that's not meeting the needs of s-pedelec fans and rarely is a government in touch with the needs of the people. I would like to point out again that this is and should be all about reducing our impact on the environment, getting people out riding even if assisted to improve health, reduce stress by improving commuting, reducing congestion and thus reducing the burden on society such as pollution, NHS, road repairs, transport police etc.
I have considered everything everyone has suggested, so I re-looked at commuting with a pedelec with the 10% leeway i.e. 17mph. Why is this not enough? I work 9hrs physical job 10-15 miles away, and the location keeps moving i.e. I work in construction. Call me crazy, but I like to get to work 30mins early so I can stop for 15mins, grab a coffee and be ready to roll as soon as 8 o'clock rolls around nice and refreshed. I'm just using my situation as an example.
It's bad enough with my (minimum) 1.5hr commute by public transport each way. And there's no way I want to be spending an hour sat on a push bike or pedelec each way. I worked out that 25mph would be perfect. 30-40mins.
A moped doesn't meet my needs because filtering is dangerous on London roads, I enjoy riding a bicycle, e-bikes are easier to lock or store, mopeds are often still stuck in traffic giving me lung cancer . Plus all the safety gear etc etc involved.
I think this class would ideally suit people like me who live in the suburbs. But yes, a well maintained, licensed and insured bike would be better

 

[London Pie]

You really should consider getting a scooter job100 - I've got 125 twist and go - it's currently the quickest and easiest way to get around (good quality electric versions are available although expensive)
There are guys who cycle the same 10mile route as I (without pedelec) and they arrive at a similar time. Therefore road conditions in London and outer suburbs make the average commute - whether motorbike or bicycle (depending on fitness levels) to be about 14.6mph I calculate - cars much slower.
Having said that if I was running the country I would have no hesitation in putting the legal limit up to 20mph, as that would be a viable alternative to the motorcar. You can easily travel at 20mph on a push bike - so why does it make any difference if you have an electric motor strapped on?
The sad fact is - the government wants us to keep drinking petrol, how are they going to make enough money taxing ebikes -unless they make further taxable implementations and restrictions. Let's face it - we live in a nanny state that wants to see us addicted to petrol for the foreseeable future.
Due to the minefield of regulations on ebikes - I plan on getting an electric scooter next year - something equivalent of a 125cc for longer journeys, and a 250w legal ebike for when I don't need to go so fast or want more exercise.

 

[JOB100]

Good point. Yeah, I would be tempted with an electric moped but it's all the rigmarol that goes with it. i.e. If I get a decent moped, the CBT, motorcycle training etc. You're looking at minimum £1400 for all the training and equipment before you've even bought a bike. Decent quality electric mopeds start from £3500. Can't afford it, and also can't afford a 1hr+ commute each way for my job. Not long term. I become incredibly tired, ratty and frankly a danger to myself. As you point out I don't see the argument. I can easily do 20mph on my bicycle, sometimes more when I have the energy. So what's the big deal with a 20-25mph electric bike. The issue is the awareness and attitude of the rider. Anyway, I've hijacked my own thread so I'll start another about why a pedelec stops providing power at 15.5mph. Makes no sense to me.

 

[flecc]

I'll start another about why a pedelec stops providing power at 15.5mph. Makes no sense to me.

Simple answer JOB100. The main cycling countries in Europe like The Netherlands have utility riders, using their bikes purely as transport with no sporting intentions, so they commonly ride in a leisurely fashion at up to about 12 mph. So the legislators fixed the assist speed limit (25kph) to match that, not wanting to cater fro those with sport riding inclinations.

Equally in Japan where pedelecs took off very early as well, cycling speeds are quite slow since they they often ride on shared pavements and in some zones they have to and there the speeds restricted by law. So they too adopted a 15 mph limit.

Also when most of Britain cycled in the 1940s and before, that too was utility cycling at up to about 12 mph, and that was the assist limit that Britain adopted originally, only increasing it to match the EU later.

But in Britain cycling almost died out in the 1960s and '70s, only reviving with the invention of the mountain bike from the early 1980s, meaning it relaunched in a sporting fashion, a bias that has stuck ever since. So here in Britain we see grim-faced, helmeted commuters hard-pedalling at 20mph or so in a manner simply not seen in the main European cycling countries.

The authorities see this as sport style riding and cannot see why those fit enough to ride like this would want assistance. That's a reasonable position, that assistance is for those who need assistance, not as a booster of average speed for the already fit. It also doesn't help that cycling is done by such a tiny minority in Britain, just 3% with e-bikes forming just 1% of bike sales. In the Netherlands it's over 70% cycling with pedelecs forming 13% of bike sales.
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[anotherkiwi]

only reviving with the invention of the mountain bike from the early 1080s,
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Ah! 1088 and all that! Jolly good show what?

Sorry just got back home after too much very good Medoc...

 

[flecc]

Ah! 1088 and all that! Jolly good show what?

Sorry just got back home after too much very good Medoc...

Now corrected. I blame my keyboard.
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[London Pie]

If I get a decent moped, the CBT, motorcycle training etc. You're looking £1400

£1400 - That's a bit steep mate. The CBT cost £120 (or £140 if you hire a bike). The theory £23. The mod 1 £15 and the mod 2 £85. I passed them all with no tuition - just looking up stuff on the Internet and you tube, although I had to take my mod 1 twice!
You can get a decent bike for 1200.
Anyway - not really the point as we all want to go electric!!

 

[CerIs]

So ive been thinking about this a lot too and morality/legality aside I have a few questions:

• Someone cant tell the wattage of a motor just by looking at it right? Are we saying the police would have to take it apart to tell?
• Even 250w ebikes have to be restricted so a restriction on a more powerful motor doesn't seem like a big deal, what the law "seems" to say is that its not an easy process to de-restrict any ebike. Is the policeman really going to count how many clicks it takes on the lcd?
• Im just getting my head around the power rating issue and "nominal" ratings - ie a 250w can put out more than that at depending on the load required and voltage x amps from the battery? IE motor size is a bit blurry anyway?

Honestly I have no desire to break the law but at the same time my takeaway from multiple posts here seems to be, dont ride like an idiot, stay off pavements and dont weave in and out of traffic at 30mph and you should be ok.

Disclaimer: im talking myself into a 500w bike I really like the look of

 

[flecc]

So ive been thinking about this a lot too and morality/legality aside I have a few questions:

• Someone cant tell the wattage of a motor just by looking at it right? Are we saying the police would have to take it apart to tell?
• Even 250w ebikes have to be restricted so a restriction on a more powerful motor doesn't seem like a big deal, what the law "seems" to say is that its not an easy process to de-restrict any ebike. Is the policeman really going to count how many clicks it takes on the lcd?
• Im just getting my head around the power rating issue and "nominal" ratings - ie a 250w can put out more than that at depending on the load required and voltage x amps from the battery? IE motor size is a bit blurry anyway?

Honestly I have no desire to break the law but at the same time my takeaway from multiple posts here seems to be, dont ride like an idiot, stay off pavements and dont weave in and out of traffic at 30mph and you should be ok.

Disclaimer: im talking myself into a 500w bike I really like the look of

They don't all have to be restricted, some use a motor that on battery voltage tops out at about 15 mph.

You're quite right that the chances of being caught riding an over powered or over speed bike are practically zero, but the problem comes if an accident occurs. In at least two previous cases that has led to traffic division officers looking deeply into the situation with a view to possible prosecution. Traffic accident investigation is one of the few areas where police officers can use whatever time and resources they need.
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[anotherkiwi]

The 250W nominal power is just EU administrative twaddle. The people who came up with that rule apparently didn't do high school physics because if you throw heaps of volts and amps at a "250W nominal" motor it can provide a whole heap more watts than 250. A real law would be "you can use a 7 Amp controller with a 36V battery" and thus the power in watts engraved on the motor wouldn't mean a thing because it would only be capable of delivering around 250W anyway. Bosch, Yamaha and co.'s lobbyists probably drafted the law and the day those companies get peeved by kits then the **** will hit the fan. Until that date drive carefully and don't get in an accident that could even half look like it was your fault because you were going to fast. Oh and don't try and get insured by Allianz if you are over 65...

 

[CerIs]

and the day those companies get peeved by kits then the **** will hit the fan.

In a good way?

Until that date drive carefully and don't get in an accident that could even half look like it was your fault because you were going to fast.

You mean with a pedestrian? I wont be on any pavements etc so hopefully unlikely. With a car Id like to think the default wasn't that it was my fault, im still slower and bit more fragile that them lol

 

[RobF]

Were you the subject of a vanishingly unlikely random roadside stop which lead to an even more vanishingly unlikely engineer's report about the bike, you could be, at worst, fined.

A crash with a motor vehicle carries a slightly bigger risk of the above investigations happening, but as you observe, the chances are your bike - and you - will be in such a mess that the last thing on anyone's mind will be to carry out a fine tooth comb inspection of the bike.

Even then, the bike might be in so many bits as to make that impossible.

Worst case scenario is you kill a toddler, but if you are made legally responsible for that the watt rating of a poxy ebike motor will be the least of your worries.

However, the risk, however slight, of something going wrong remains.

If you are adverse to that, don't buy the 500w bike.

Modern fully legal 250w bikes have a decent amount of poke, and are probably not far short of what you are thinking of buying.