Approved ebike list?

[Jeremy]

An interesting point as well is that many high powered, fast ebikes can be brought back in line by simply substituting a lower voltage battery.

For instance my bikes battery is 63v. It would be very easy to dispose of that battery (assuming I'm not insensible as a result of an accident) and present the bike for inspection with a 36v battery - whereon it would match the characteristics of most "legal" ebikes - ignoring the type approval issue etc.

And of course it's very easy to also have a passive system built in so anyone testing the bike wouldn't be able to get the bike to assist above 16mph and the wattage would also be very low - certainly in line with EN approved bikes - in fact it'd feel a bit wimpy, the tester would probably conclude walking to be faster ;-)

Of course, Tilson will tell me that the above is all perjury etc - and he'd be right.

One thing to watch is the battery voltage. As one of the things I used to do was safety approval related I was already familiar with the Low Voltage Directive. Provided you keep the system voltage below 75V DC (or 50V AC on the phase leads) then there is no need for any approval under the LVD. It's one reason that the maximum battery voltage allowed under the EN15194 regulations is 48V.

I've made a point of trying to keep all my ebikes down to around the 48V level (with the exception of one test I did at around 60V on a 15S pack), really just to play safe. The risk is tiny, but it might be one more thing that someone could throw at you if it all went horribly wrong.

The downside of doing this is that I'm forever hunting out high speed motor winds.................

 

[tillson]

But what?

TBH, what I was hoping for was someone to come forward, preferably from the ebike business, with a clear and unequivocal statement with regard to ready made ebikes and their legality. Certainly a couple of vendors have made it clear that their ebikes are Type Approved to EN15194 and hence legal, but equally we've seen a lot of confusion as to what is and what is not legal, including a reference to a kit being approved (which it cannot really be on it's own, it turns out).

The bottom line is that I had to spend a lot more time digging through the law and trying (in vain) to find any DfT exemptions that might apply. Whether this has been useful or not is up the the individual. In my case I've got what I wanted, although not quite as easily as I'd hoped. Some may have been annoyed by the whole discussion, some may have been informed by it, others may possibly have been surprised by it (as I was to some degree).

What is now clear to me is that the situation is messier than I'd assumed, and some vendors seem as confused and uncertain about the law as some customers. I'm not at all sure that's a good thing if we want to encourage people back into cycling via ebikes.

This thread has interested me and I have been following it closely. It has certainly brought a lot of new information to my attention and some very good points have been presented, clearly as a result of reading and digesting the legislation as it currently exists.

I don't think that there has been any mischievous intent and I have gained a better understanding of the legislation as a result. Thank you.

 

[amigafan2003]

This thread has interested me and I have been following it closely. It has certainly brought a lot of new information to my attention and some very good points have been presented, clearly as a result of reading and digesting the legislation as it currently exists.

I don't think that there has been any mischievous intent and I have gained a better understanding of the legislation as a result. Thank you.

Ditto - I've thoughroughly enjoyed this thread.

Knowledge is power and all that.

 

[Jeremy]

Thanks tillson, I can assure you there was no mischievous intent on my part.

I, too, am much better informed than I was a day or two ago. I can't say that I am particularly comfortable with the way things are, though.

 

[shemozzle999]

I can't say that I am particularly comfortable with the way things are, though.

I agree and I am also worried about the future.

It seems to me that the proposed changes will go ahead, unchecked, based on purely commercial requirements, dictated by present EU commercial trading requirements and preservation of the control of the marketplace. Money takes precedence once again!

I wonder what the minimum price of a legal bike will cost in the future?

 

[neptune]

There is one thing that I have learned from this, is something that i already knew. The law is an ass.

 

[103Alex1]

This thread has been very interesting. It's reinforced my feelings that the way to achieve the enhanced capabilities a kit build definitely can deliver with nominal appearance of being within the parameters permitted by law (i.e. use of controllers and sensors capable of instant restriction should the need arise) are far too complex for the average person to understand or be capable of regularizing in the event of a problem.

It is only with information exchanged between those who understand and can tinker with electronics that these secret enhanced performance benefits may be enjoyed by a few. Everyone else is stuck with the choice between sky high prices, clearly illegal bikes or under-performing offerings.

Some may choose to take risks and potentially fight battles with non-compliant builds in the event of challenge or accident, but for the time being I've fought enough battles in other aspects of my life recently not to want any more grief for what I stand to get out of it (basically, a bit less physical strain).

Let's be honest the people who actually need powerful bikes are those who live in very hilly or mountainous rural areas with no public transport. If those people have no driving licence (e.g. have not passed a test or have had it revoked) then they are left with very few options for getting around unless they are fit / athletic. You do not need an unregistered 500W bike to ride around London, Birmingham or Bristol. You may well find it a lifesaver in the Malvern hills.

My conclusion from reading all this is that the best thing to do is if you are capable enough, get as light a bike as you can, train hard and get in shape to make up for what the law will not allow you to get off your motor and battery. Whatever age you are. That way, you can rely on your muscle power which no law can restrict. It may cost more to feed your body calories than charge a battery but at least you don't need a new one every 2 years. If you definitely still need an eBike on account of disability or age then you are basically much more limited (that is inevitable) but the basic utility range on the market at least offers something rather than nothing.

 

[Kudoscycles]

This thread started with the heading 'approved ebike list'....I suspect that most people clicked on the thread to view such a list....so,where's the list?

 

[Jeremy]

On the topic of the power that's needed, it's worth remembering that an ordinary, non-athlete, on a bike can only usually sustain around 100 to 150W. A sustained 250W (as allowed under the pedelec regs) is more akin to the power output of a pretty fit cyclist. Add in the 100 to 150W of pedal power and you're up into the sort of sustained power level of pretty elite cyclists.

The major problem with many ebikes, particularly those with hub motors, is that they are poor at delivering their rated power at low speed when climbing hills. Bikes that drive through the bottom bracket and gears are almost always a lot better at climbing hills on a given power than hub motor bikes, even those with geared hubs.

The snag is that for the DIY ebike builder there isn't much choice when it comes to bottom bracket drive systems. The GNG kit seems to be pretty good, if a little agricultural looking. If it were a bit tidier and more discreet looking I might be tempted myself. The pretty dreadful looking (and somewhat noisy) Cyclone is perhaps the only other commonly available add-on bottom bracket drive, but it is a really tacky bodge job to mount. The Ego kit seems to use the same core components as the Cyclone, but with better looking mounting brackets and a much higher price.

I've long felt that a nicely engineered, fairly quiet and easy to fit bottom bracket drive would suit those who would like to convert a bike they already own and have a need for good hill climbing capability.

 

[Jeremy]

This thread started with the heading 'approved ebike list'....I suspect that most people clicked on the thread to view such a list....so,where's the list?

The simple answer is that there doesn't seem to be one, as far as I can determine. I've followed false trails and discovered that not all the claims made by some vendors are true, have found a handful of vendors who are pretty up front about their bikes being approved, and a lot of duff information in various adverts.

In terms of me getting what I wanted, which was a short-list of legal ebikes that I think might suite the lady's needs and budget, then I think I've narrowed the choice down to a handful that I feel reasonable happy to recommend. There's no local ebike shop near me (AFAIK), and the lady in question is a good few years senior to me (and I'm retired), so I suspect she will have to buy mail order. Not ideal, which is one reason I thought it wise to try and do some in-depth research for her first.

 

[indalo]

If you definitely still need an eBike on account of disability or age then you are basically much more limited (that is inevitable) but the basic utility range on the market at least offers something rather than nothing.

There's a great choice of i/c or electric mopeds available where no pedalling at all is really the order of the day. For those with infirmities, I'd feel happier knowing they were riding something probably marginally more substantial than a bicycle and equipped with a proper helmet. Many such machines cost far less than some ebikes and throttle comes as standard. Actually buying a moped or light motorcycle and putting it on the road isn't exactly onerous so I can't understand all this fuss about needing throttles on ebikes.

In southern europe, scooters are hugely popular among the pre-baby boom generations and lots still either don't wear or don't fasten their helmet. I suspect many haven't ever passed any kind of test but when one witnesses a father with his three kids and a priest all aboard a low-powered scooter riding up the High St of a town on Kos, clearly a different attitude exists from that in the UK.

Indalo

 

[103Alex1]

The snag is that for the DIY ebike builder there isn't much choice when it comes to bottom bracket drive systems. The GNG kit seems to be pretty good, if a little agricultural looking. If it were a bit tidier and more discreet looking I might be tempted myself. The pretty dreadful looking (and somewhat noisy) Cyclone is perhaps the only other commonly available add-on bottom bracket drive, but it is a really tacky bodge job to mount. The Ego kit seems to use the same core components as the Cyclone, but with better looking mounting brackets and a much higher price.

I've long felt that a nicely engineered, fairly quiet and easy to fit bottom bracket drive would suit those who would like to convert a bike they already own and have a need for good hill climbing capability.

Nail on the head. I don't think on the balance of reports that the GNG kit is up to the mustard. These units need a great sensor system like that used by Kalkhoff / BH e-motion to modulate the power delivery and provide a sensitive and responsive ride. Have come so close to relenting on a hub drive kit but it would inevitably be a throw power at the problem approach and in the end it just brings too many complications and a life of regulatory worries when all I want to do is ride a relatively trouble-free user-friendly bike with adjustable and efficient power consumption and which rides like a fantastic regular bike when you turn the power off.

Blatently off-topic, If you want a ready-made hill-climber and are not coy about legality then the Aurora Alien is there for a grand new. A decent crank-drive bike with less performance but good specs for unassisted riding is £2-3k. The differential is just way too high and if the cost of really good crank drive bikes came down by £1k I wouldn't even be tempted into looking at illegal souped-up hub-drives. This is the exploited younger riding potential additional market talking here .... solve the problem at point of supply !!!!

 

[amigafan2003]

AEG are supposed to be launching a retrofittable crank drive kit soon.

Endless-sphere.com • View topic - AEG drive

 

[shemozzle999]

I've long felt that a nicely engineered, fairly quiet and easy to fit bottom bracket drive would suit those who would like to convert a bike they already own and have a need for good hill climbing capability.

Something like this - under 200w so you can have a throttle - you dont need more because of the mechanical advantage, it would require some fettling:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/13181-light-weight-crank-drive.html#post157864

 

[103Alex1]

AEG are supposed to be launching a retrofittable crank drive kit soon.

Endless-sphere.com • View topic - AEG drive

Looks interesting. But if the motor is 250W it doesn't help much because the onus is on the person fitting the kit to get the bike EN15194 approval for it to be legal under our EU obligations and that would not be economic for a single build. So you would still be left with an illegal bike.

Bottom line is you are going to have to forget about kit builds if you want a legal bike (which can proved to be legal under Statute rather than "general concenses" which a magistrate looking to imprison you is not going to take any notice of) and accordingly get forced to pay thousands of pounds to retailers for the privilege, all on account of reglations which protect manufacturers and retailers' margins due to economies of scale.

The little man is once again forced into a corner by red tape and commerce, and if he is unfortunate enough to be involved in a serious accident will likely, one way or the other, pay for it via legal punishment too. Those who have the money to buy their way into peace of mind are protected. Whichever category I may fall into (and I have been in both) it is fundamentally wrong.

I genuinely detest what society has become in the developed world today and the injustice that comes with it. It knocks back any individual trying to do for themselves and drives a sledgehammer through innovation and creativity outside of the corporation. Freedoms are destroyed and we are all forced to bark to a retail tune in the end or face the risks and consequences which can be very real.

I hope one day to be able to live again in a society less infected by this repetitive and crushing cycle of extortion but for the next year I can't. In the meantime, I offer all the encouragement to those in a position to take the risks I can't and keep pushing the boundaries in a bid to open the doors for a fairer market which allows individual choice and finds a voice for kit systems to be approved to the same level as ready-built bikes.

Something like this - under 200w so you can have a throttle - you dont need more because of the mechanical advantage, it would require some fettling:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/13181-light-weight-crank-drive.html#post157864

shemozzle999, not being funny but that just ain't gonna climb hills. You just about get away with it with a top-end 250W and preferably a 300W+ like they have in the S class bikes.

 

[amigafan2003]

I offer all the encouragement to those in a position to take the risks I can't and keep pushing the boundaries in a bid to open the doors for a fairer market which allows individual choice and finds a voice for kit systems to be approved to the same level as ready-built bikes

I'll see what I can do

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The snag is that for the DIY ebike builder there isn't much choice when it comes to bottom bracket drive systems. The GNG kit seems to be pretty good, if a little agricultural looking. If it were a bit tidier and more discreet looking I might be tempted myself. The pretty dreadful looking (and somewhat noisy) Cyclone is perhaps the only other commonly available add-on bottom bracket drive, but it is a really tacky bodge job to mount. The Ego kit seems to use the same core components as the Cyclone, but with better looking mounting brackets and a much higher price.

Which kit are you referring to? They make several in a range of powers from 250w to 900w. The new 400w brushless one is very tidy, discreet and easy to fit. Don't forget also the Sunstar 03 that's been around for a long time, and a 36v version under development.
iBike

 

[103Alex1]

Don't forget also the Sunstat 03 that's been around for a long time, and a 36v version under development.
iBike

Over 1500 Euros after VAT. More than the cost of an Aurora Alien for the kit before adding in the cost / value of a donor bike !

 

[Jeremy]

Over 1500 Euros after VAT. More than the cost of an Aurora Alien for the kit before adding in the cost / value of a donor bike !

That's the reason I left it off the list, the price is just unrealistic for a kit. TBH, the Ego is somewhat similar, for a kit that's far too great a power to ever be legal.

200W motor output power at the cranks is a fair bit more than you might think. Many of the early Panasonic units were actually less than 200W continuous, yet were good climbers, thanks to the combination of efficient gearing and good control electronics.

As I mentioned before, an average person only averages around 100 to 150W continuous power for a sustained period, so 200W more than doubles the overall power available. With the right bike, gearing and control system 200W output has the potential to turn an ordinary pedaller into the equivalent of a fairly good athlete, but without the extra effort.

To get back of topic, why isn't there an electric bike association that publishes a list of all its members ebikes that are known, beyond any doubt, to be 100% legal? Earlier I was informed about BEBA and its members, but closer investigation revealed that there was no requirement for them to sell only 100% legal ebikes. Perhaps they might want to consider creating what I think would be a very useful aid for potential ebike customers by putting such a list together.

 

[shemozzle999]

I hope that this thread has shown that a difficult situation can be discussed civily and why it is important that all the different camps of thought need to be heard to understand the current situation and we need unity to ensure that the best outcome in the future takes into account all ebikers concerns.

Thanks Jeremy for raising the topic.