Anyone heard of sustaincycles

[halfmedley]

I hope my bike isn't 'destined for a premature end' Flecc! Maybe that's the difference between expensive and cheap bikes, the 'hope factor' (being in inverse proportion to the price!).

However, compared to the initial outlay, most standard bicycle components can be replaced for a marginal cost. After 800 miles I've had to replace the rear brake blocks, cost me a fiver. Admittedly I've also put some Marathons on the wheels, but I don't think expensive ebikes come with them either.

I'd say the biggest problem would be if the motor/controller/battery part of the bike packed up, which would be beyond my (and my local bike shop's) ability to repair. There again, I don't think expensive models are necessarily immune from these problems, as other threads on this forum can attest.
After sales support, therefore, is good for peace-of-mind.

For all ebikes the biggest replacement cost item will be the battery - do batteries last longer on a more expensive machines? My lithium battery and charger (complete with RoHS stickers) are performing fine - without quantitative data it's impossible to make a judgement about safety.

There's an interview with Bob Watson from Synergie on the evuk website; here's the link Electric Vehicles UK (scroll down the page to March 2007) in which some of the issues in this thread are discussed.

Having droned on now for far too long, I would just like to say that I mean no disrespect to owners of ebikes whether they be cheap or expensive. As always it's caveat emptor, with the rider that cheapness or expensiveness isn't always a measure of worth - which is why forums like this are invaluable.

 

[flecc]

I agree halfmedley, and as I always say, each to his own and everyone should enjoy the fullest choice.

But the presentation of very cheap bikes in both the normal and e-bike markets as quality machines has done a lot of damage and restricted progress, so I think there's nothing wrong in warning of the truth, and resent such warnings being attacked each time.

I'm also always concerned that any mention of this by me and others brings the completely irrelevant allusion to more expensive bikes being in some way often a rip-off. Clearly those who say this either don't understand the mechanism of just returns in commerce, or wilfully ignore the facts. Two bikes that are separated by just £100 production cost at source will end up several hundred pounds apart to the final customer if all involved get the same percentage return. (including the Vatman).

Rip-offs are just as likely at the cheap end. Ask anyone involved at a high level in the supermarket business and they'll happily admit their most profitable lines are the basic cut price own brand ones.

As for batteries, a cheap Li-ion might last as well as a more expensive one, but often doesn't. Moreover, the cheaper ones of more likely to have the older cheaper formulations with the consequent risk of fire. Allotmenteer in this forum has experience of both of these with a budget end battery, and has very fully reported on that sad episode.
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[flecc]

Further to my above posting, I've now read through that Synergie link, and to us it's completely worthless. We buy bikes, not future promises.

I've lived through over half a century of the battery industry and battery research bodies telling us of the miracles that are just around the corner, but they never materialise.

At the end of all those empty promises, the world's largest usage of high power batteries is for starting almost all the world's vehicles, using the 19th century lead acid technology. Two centuries later, none of the other technologies are remotely up to the job in terms of reliability and price.
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[DBCohen]

...

There's an interview with Bob Watson from Synergie on the evuk website; here's the link Electric Vehicles UK (scroll down the page to March 2007) in which some of the issues in this thread are discussed.

...

Unfortunately, I find the EVUK website no help in the promotion of anybody's viewpoint except their own. They have no concept of balance whatsoever, and freely throw out all sorts of allegations with no basis to back them up. Add to that the incredibly early 90's HTML design, the absence of website structure, and their insistence on using lousy coloured text and punctuation in a shotgun style across all of the site (here's a hint - if you emphasis eveything you emphasis nothing!), you end up with something that appears completely uncredible (and almost unhinged IMHO).

In the interview referenced, it is clear that Synergie exploited the EVUK zeal for trumpeting anything electric - there is nothing objective, just the manufacturer's statements on the quality of their product. Accordingly, I find nothing there that counterpoints any of the discussions here.

 

[andrewelectricbike1]

However, compared to the initial outlay, most standard bicycle components can be replaced for a marginal cost. After 800 miles I've had to replace the rear brake blocks, cost me a fiver. Admittedly I've also put some Marathons on the wheels, but I don't think expensive ebikes come with them either.

A fiver for brake pads? Asda for £1.69. Sure the nut rusts but hey at 15-20mph the blocks don`t last long anyway.

 

[halfmedley]

Ouch! Cost is clearly a contentious issue, though I still think there is an economic case for the cheaper machine. I bought mine to commute on, and at current usage rates it will have paid for itself by year end. That is the only useful measure I have. I wasn't suggesting that expensive machines were in any way a rip-off, just questioning the economics, from a personal point of view, of purchasing one. Nor should this forum be shy in alerting prospective buyers to the duff stuff. I agree with you Flecc, rip-off's are just as likely to occur at the cheap end, possibly more so.

Website design as a means of judging content? You could write a dissertation on that!

 

[DBCohen]

Website design as a means of judging content? You could write a dissertation on that!

My comment was meant to make clear that in my opinion the content is biased rubbish.

The fact that it is presented in a 'nutjob conspiracy theory' manner just debases it even more - but even if it had the highest web production values, the level of bias and baseless allegations would remain.

 

[BigBob]

Wow - seems I've stirred a bit of a hornet's nest here guys. Sorry about that.

I still come back to my original point though - I, along with plenty of others no doubt, had a choice: Buy a cheaper model NOW or wait until some time in the future in the hope of being able to afford a more expensive one.

Did the same thing when I started motorcycling and driving - bought what I could afford. Yes, sometimes it did mean I spent more time 'repairing rather than riding' but at least I was 'out there on the road'.

I accept the fact that I *MAY* need to replace/repair parts such as bearings etc but how many bearings can I change for the £400/500 I haven't spent; as to motors/controllers, experience tells me that if they work initially and don't develop any faults in the first few months (which are covered by guarantee) they tend to work for a long time without problem. That leaves us with batteries - Worst case and a battery goes down, again it's only going to be a fraction of what I've already saved.

People have alluded, on this and other threads, to potential problems with Lithium cells being a fire risk. This is something not restricted to Lithium based cells.

For a number of years I have been involved in my sons' hobby of racing RC Cars and have watched the battery technology develop for the last 20 years from Sub-C Nicads of 1200mah rating, through to 2400mah rating before a change in technology meant we all changed to NimH starting with 3000mah to these days 4200mah. IN EACH AND EVERY STAGE I AM AWARE OF CELLS EITHER 'VENTING' OR EXPLODING WHEN THEY WERE USED OUTSIDE MANUFACTURER'S RECOMMENDATIONS.

One lady I know has recently lost the sight in one eye completely and the other partially after a 5 AA cell battery exploded whilst on charge. She was following the common practice of charging at 1.5amps - something we've all done for years, but she was unlucky.

Cheers



Bob

 

[flecc]

I wasn't suggesting that expensive machines were in any way a rip-off, just questioning the economics, from a personal point of view, of purchasing one.

The economics of purchase of the upper end of any range are always insupportable halfmedley, due to the compounding effect of margins and value added factors.

Is a £60,000 Mercedes worth that much more then the latest £16,000 Mondeo? On the basis that they both do the same job, of course not, but that's an illustration of how prices can compound, and both be just.

But in a mature market like cars, prices are consistent and relative values and positions in each sector are clear. A small family hatchback commonly costs around £10,000, but you can't buy a much better specified one for only £2500.

But in the very immature e-bike market, that's what these cheap bike purveyors are trying to kid you, that a better specified bike with full suspension and latest battery technology can be had for as little as a quarter of the price of those with a little less specification from established and reputable manufacturers.
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[flecc]

No need for an apology Bob, your views are as important and valued as anyone else's. My different position is just in making it clear just what the bottom end of the price bracket brings.

Most with reasonably priced ebikes have experienced the shock reaction when someone inquiring the bike's price is answered, usually "How Much?"

This shows how common the perception is that a bike costs £50 to £100 and an e-bike should therefore only be around £200, maybe £300 tops. And that's the huge damage that the cheap bike shifters have done, destroying all reality in the market. We are the losers in this, for it restricts the sales of higher price machines which in turn severely restricts investment in R and D and subsequent improvements. And if there's one thing that's certain, improvement is needed.

Yes, NiMh and even lead acid can explode, but that's a charging issue, and e-bike chargers are proven and very safe. The Li-ion fires aren't in any way connected with charging, but due to the incidental random formation of sharp metal particulates which penetrate internal insulating barriers and start short circuits, often with catastrophic results.
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[nigel]

Nigel

BY FLECC
This shows how common the perception is that a bike costs £50 to £100 and an e-bike should therefore only be around £200, maybe £300 tops. And that's the huge damage that the cheap bike shifters have done, destroying all reality in the market. We are the losers in this, for it restricts the sales of higher price machines which in turn severely restricts investment in R and D and subsequent improvements. And if there's one thing that's certain, improvement is needed Quite right flecc but as a lower income earner i cant afford 1400 pounds for the best models unless i save up which will take a few months or i could buy a cheaper model yes we all know you pay for what you get but sometimes cheaper is right at the time.NIGEL.

 

[halfmedley]

Flecc, I'm not sure how the availability of cheap bikes 'restricts the sales of more expensive machines', but it's undoubtedly true that some cheap bike purveyors try to kid people that their products are as good as more expensive varieties. Hopefully I didn't get suckered into believing that with my bike, and realised what I was getting for the money.

And yet I'm sure the purveyors of more expensive machines are as guilty of using positive 'spin' too, else how would they get people to fork out for a 'Mercedes' when 'Mondeo's' are perfectly adequate?

Stretching the car analogy a bit further, perhaps your Q- and T- machines should be regarded as the Mercs, the standard machines as Mondeo's and the cheap stuff as Skodas (pre-Volkswagen of course). Cue ancient Skoda jokes.

Anyway, I'm not saying any more on this topic. Who'd have thought ebikes would arouse such passion!

 

[DBCohen]

No need for an apology Bob, your views are as important and valued as anyone else's. My different position is just in making it clear just what the bottom end of the price bracket brings.

...

Yes, NiMh and even lead acid can explode, but that's a charging issue, and e-bike chargers are proven and very safe. The Li-ion fires aren't in any way connected with charging, but due to the incidental random formation of sharp metal particulates which penetrate internal insulating barriers and start short circuits, often with catastrophic results.

A very good point, Flecc. What you are paying for in a more expensive product is better quality control - and hopefully a manufacturing environment where rock-bottom costs and wages are not the biggest factor.

China recognises that poor manufacturing and playing fast and loose with safety standards will hurt their economy in the long run - they have just executed the former head of their Food and Drug Administration for taking bribes and not enforcing standards, after a slew of health scares relating to drugs and foods made in China

BBC NEWS | World | Asia-Pacific | China food safety head executed

Even Sony got these batteries wrong - and they issued a worldwide recall of millions of the things. All you need is some disreputable official thinking he can save a dollar a unit and make some cash by looking the other way when a component is substituted, and you have a problem on your hands.

Paying more hopefully gets you better quality, and takes you out of the 'cheapest supplier wins' market. I've had plenty of cheap product from places over the years that is either only good for one use, or doesn't work right straight out of the box.

As has been said - nobody objects to the rock-bottom merchants per se. What is a problem is how often these guys imply that their quality and product are superior to the more expensive ones.

 

[coops]

Interesting points & exchange of views .

Definitely one of the most valuable assets of pedelecs for me is the openness of discussion together with access to good information: no-one is deprived of their entitlement to hold any opinion they want, while access to well-informed factual & realistic information which can cut through any confusion, misinformation or hype whatever the origin is readily available .

Just to respond to some of your points, halfmedley :

I'd say the biggest problem would be if the motor/controller/battery part of the bike packed up, which would be beyond my (and my local bike shop's) ability to repair. There again, I don't think expensive models are necessarily immune from these problems, as other threads on this forum can attest.
After sales support, therefore, is good for peace-of-mind.

Can you say which expensive models you mean, to avoid people jumping to the wrong conclusions? Apart from the seemingly growing number cases of Twist motor problems, which is a more complex setup and more to go wrong anyway (eventually), the only other motor/controller failures I can recall are just a few on cheaper bikes, by which time the supplier has often gone out of business.

Back to the car analogy, how often do the highest performance cars break down because of a complex component failure?...

And yet I'm sure the purveyors of more expensive machines are as guilty of using positive 'spin' too, else how would they get people to fork out for a 'Mercedes' when 'Mondeo's' are perfectly adequate?

Look at the hype surrounding the highest priced ebikes such as those listed shortly to see how .

Stretching the car analogy a bit further, perhaps your Q- and T- machines should be regarded as the Mercs, the standard machines as Mondeo's and the cheap stuff as Skodas (pre-Volkswagen of course). Cue ancient Skoda jokes.

...To be fair, I think if you're going to compare the "mercs" and "mondeos" of ebikes, then start at the top of the ebike price range e.g. the optibikes, swizzbees & faltrads/other newer transmission drive bikes, which cost £2000 upwards but essentially do the same job, as do mercs & mondeos. £600-1000 then appears low to mid range, but gets the job done ok .

I wouldn't call the Q & T mercs or super car types, but neither are they excactly mondeos either: they appear to be good quality, solid customised performers .

Flecc, I'm not sure how the availability of cheap bikes 'restricts the sales of more expensive machines'

Just a guess, but maybe because more people buy cheaper ones 'cos they're there & they either don't want to spend more money or think they're better value, hence less sales of more expensive machines?

Stuart.

 

[andrewelectricbike1]

I always wondered what you got for the extra £1000.. and it wasn`t stainless spokes

The best graded list I have seen recently is the AtoB site and the UK electric price guide at A to B magazine, folding bikes, electric bicycles, trailers, sister publication to Miniature Railway magazine It is pretty unbiased apart from the occasional wistful phrase about defunct drives.

Until a site (or forum) pulls together some sort of testing regime or impartial index, perhaps it should be the first place to direct new hopefuls.

The problem is that the potential EV market ranges from cycle purists to kids to those with practical disability to those who like to tinker with electronics to those who like to use duct tape.

I prefer the cheeky tinkerer who owned a cheap bike, bought an expensive better bike, decided it wasn`t good enough so made his/her own bike from readily available kits.. perhaps even using parts from his/her original cheap bike

Andrew

 

[flecc]

Flecc, I'm not sure how the availability of cheap bikes 'restricts the sales of more expensive machines',

Having convinced the public that the cheap bikes are the correct price point, the cheap bike suppliers have made it somewhere between difficult and impossible to sell bikes at sensible prices. That harms us and our movement in three ways.

First, the top end firms who do R and D are deprived of an adequate cash flow to do that. These cheap bike suppliers are essentially parasites, copying designs and doing no R and D whatsoever. This can even lead to closure of high end suppliers, leaving their customers stumped for spares and batteries, and there's a current slight possibility of that happening in one case, which shall remain anonymous for obvious reasons.

Second, the short life and reliability issues of many cheap bikes seriously damages e-bike advancement. Once stung by a cheap buy, people often tend not to bother again.

Third, with unpowered bikes, the general unpleasantness to ride of cheap, all steel, very heavy, dual suspended fat tyred mountain bikes that are bought for, and wanted by kids soon puts them off cycling for life, once they find how terribly hard that sort of cycling is. They of course have no idea of how easy it could have been. It's factors like this that make cycling so rare in this country, both adult and child. In European countries where the cheap bike/MTB etc fashion has never taken over, cycling remains widespread though all age groups.

That's the huge accumulation of cost to us of these cheap bike suppliers, who make us ultimately the losers. Hence my resentment of the damage they have done and continue to do. Far from being our friends, making good product easily available, they're our enemy, ultimately damaging our interests.
.

 

[flecc]

Quite right flecc but as a lower income earner i cant afford 1400 pounds for the best models unless i save up which will take a few months or i could buy a cheaper model yes we all know you pay for what you get but sometimes cheaper is right at the time.NIGEL.

Hi Nigel. Of course I didn't mean that £1400 is the only choice, that's going to extremes.

My complaint is with junk e-bikes around £300 or so. There are perfectly good bikes starting at around £500 upwards, Powacycle, eZee Liv etc, so those on budgets are well looked after with bikes that are better than the bottom end junk any day.
.

 

[BigBob]

Having convinced the public that the cheap bikes are the correct price point, the cheap bike suppliers have made it somewhere between difficult and impossible to sell bikes at sensible prices. That harms us and our movement in three ways.

Of course there is another point of view: If there wasn't a budget end to the market, I for one would never have considered buying an ebike. That would also be one customer 'lost' forever. Can't imagine I'm the only one either.

I accept what has been said about R&D costs being one of the factors that can push the costs of 'cutting edge' technology up - but that's the same in very many areas, computers and cars being 2 prime examples. In my experience what tends to happen is that 'premium' models carry the cutting edge technology and as that technology gets outdated (very quickly with PC's ) it gets passed down the line to cheaper models so those with smaller budgets/lower demands/less 'snob factor' can benefit.

How many developments started life in in either F1 or top of the range Mercedes models before finding their way down to lower priced cars later in their life?



Regards



BB

 

[andrewelectricbike1]

Hear hear

It wasn`t cutting edge technology and investment in R&D that made the price of the Ezee sprint go up. It was good reviews.
Andrew

 

[BigBob]

P.S how do you do a route on google?

If you go on GoogleEarth, zoom in on the area you're interested in, select ruler from the buttons on the top of the screen and 'Path', you can click the mouse at points on your route and get the distance.

Looking at the bottom of the screen from left to right you have the Lat/Long and next to that you have the elevation in metres. By measuring the distance and checking the start and finish elevations you can work out the gradient of the hills



HTH




BB