Any one bought this kit?

morphix

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 24, 2010
2,163
119
Worcestershire
www.cyclecharge.org.uk
As per title, I saw this on Bms battery website and looks interesting.

MagicPie3 Third Generation Hub Motor

What battery would be best with this kit? Any one experience of this kit?

Many thanks,

Iain
I've seen this kit sold on another site. 1000W eh, do you wanna ride that on roads? I think this might attract the attention of the boys in blue unless you restricted the speed.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Not tried it, but you should give reasons why you think it might suit your needs. There might be better alternatives.
How fast do you want to go?
How far?
How much do you weigh?
Will you be riding up hills?
 

iain85

Pedelecer
Aug 5, 2010
187
4
Hi,
No intention to ride on roads so hopefully that bibs will leave me be!
Off road machine only, 15 stone weight, quite like something with speed but not horrendous battery range would like at least 10 miles.
Still new to elec bike seen so asking as much as I can. This kit looked pretty cheap and thought might be good to stick on my bike as a experiment. I'm quite keen on the Ktm range of bikes and think il ultimately have one of those as well but this looks a reasonable cost to what I suspect is a fast kit ( I'm only baseing this on wattage! I might be wrong?)

Thanks
 

iain85

Pedelecer
Aug 5, 2010
187
4
Thanks for the link. Seems like not such a great idea after all. So it seems like a better idea to have an external controller? Confused.com
 

banbury frank

Banned
Jan 13, 2011
1,565
5
Hi Iain 85

Where a bouts are you

If you come to Banbury you can test ride one off our demo bikes and see our range off kits and finished Bikes

Thanks Frank
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
Hi,
No intention to ride on roads so hopefully that bibs will leave me be!
Off road machine only, 15 stone weight, quite like something with speed but not horrendous battery range would like at least 10 miles.
I keep mentioning this, as there seems to be a common view that a powerful electric bike is legal to use off road.

It isn't. If it doesn't meet the legal requirements to be an electric bike on the road, then it isn't a bicycle in law but a motor vehicle, and so cannot be used off road unless it's registered, insured etc, etc. The exceptions would be if used off road on private land with no public right of access, but there are few places like that in the UK now, or if used off road at a recognised competition event (motorcross, trials etc).
 

iain85

Pedelecer
Aug 5, 2010
187
4
Hi Frank, bit far for me but thanks for the offer. Are you at the bike expo in January? What is your opinion on them compared to the other kits available? Does wattage mean speed or torque? Many thanks.
 
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Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
iain85;162772 Does wattage mean speed or torque? Many thanks.[/QUOTE said:
Good question, as it means the product of both.

My personal view is that you can pretty much ignore power claims, as they are often fairly unrealistic. Torque determines the way the bike will accelerate and the performance when climbing hills and is probably the most obvious difference between the feel of one bike and another.

There is a fixed inverse relationship between the motor velocity constant (which is the RPM per volt figure that determines theoretical top speed) and the motor torque constant (which is the torque per amp of motor current). Motors are always limited by their ability to shed waste heat and this depends on the current flowing through them, not the voltage of the battery. In practice, motor current, and hence torque, is set by the motor controller, not the motor. For example, you may see kits advertised as being "250 W", yet being supplied with a controller capbable of more than 25A and a 36V battery pack. As power input is simply battery current (in amps) x battery voltage (in volts) then you can quickly conclude that a 25A controller and a 36V battery is going to mean that the kit is capable of delivering a continuous, current limited, 900 W. Whether the motor can accept this power continuously depends very much on it's size and the winding turn number (higher winding number of turns = more torque per amp of motor current = more waste heat from extra winding resistance).

There is a useful simulator here: ebikes.ca Hub Motor and Ebike Simulator where you can set things like the motor type, controller type, battery spec and bike type and weight and then see what sort of performance you might get.
 

iain85

Pedelecer
Aug 5, 2010
187
4
Thanks Jeramy, tbh a lot of that went over my head. Il re-read it a few times and try to get to the bottom of it
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Thanks Jeramy, tbh a lot of that went over my head. Il re-read it a few times and try to get to the bottom of it
I'll try and give you a few facts and figures and examples that might help you to get a better understanding how it all works. These are only generalisations.

Most 250w so-called legal bikes have 250w motors and they have controllers set between 12 and 15 amps. They can do about 18mph, but are unlikely to get up a medium hill without pedalling.

The more amps you have, the steeper the hills you can climb. You can often modify the 15 amp controllers to give 20amps, which is about the maximum for a 250w motor, and will give better hill-climbing, but not much change to speed on the flat.

A 350w motor (apart from the Q100, which is more like a 250w motor) can handle 20 to 30 amps and will get you up a medium hill without pedalling, but you will have to pedal a bit on steep hills.

A 500w or more motor will get you up fairly steep hills without pedalling with more than 30amps

The speed of the motor depends on what speed it's designed to spin at, and has nothing to do with power; however, it needs power to maintain speed. The higher the speed, the more power it needs. A 250w motor at 15amps can maintain about 18mph, a 350w motor at 22 amps about 22 mph and a 500w motor at 30 amps about 25mph. All the above estimates from the beginning are at 36v.

If you used the same motors at 48v, they would try to spin 33% faster, but would need about 33% fewer amps to maintain the same speed as at 36v, so you can now see that your actual speed depends firstly on the design of the motor, which affects the speed it will spin at at any given voltage. then how many volts you use, and finally having enough amps to give the power to maintain any speed. therefore the final speed depends on which battery you have, which speed version of the motor and the amps rating of your controller. Your battery must be powerful enough to give the amps that the controller allows, so if you want to run at say 25amps, you need a special high discharge rate battery or at least 20aH capacity.

It's much better to decide, what speed you want to go, and then find a motor that's designed for that speed, then a controller and battery to match. At the same time you need to bear in mind your weight and the steepness of the hills you'll be going up. When looking at a motor, your first question should always be: How many rpm does it spin at with say 36v? 201rpm equates to about 15mph, so 25mph is about 335rpm.

Let's say you decide that you want to go 25mph. You need a motor that will reach 335rpm at 36v. You also need a controller and battery capable of giving 25 amps. Alternatively, you could use a 36v 250rpm motor with a 48v battery and controller at about 20amps. These figures are very approximate. Or, you could use 335rpm 48v motor controller and battery at 20 amps. In all cases the motor needs to be rated at 500w or more.

Finally, big motors and batteries weigh a lot, and you soon find that they spoil your ride and make it less like a bicycle, so then you find that you have to make some sort of compromise.
 

iain85

Pedelecer
Aug 5, 2010
187
4
Thanks very much, that makes it a lot clearer in my mind now. A lot of the higher Ah batteries look huge! Looking at the haibike for example I note that run only 8ah batteries. Given my earlier post about weight and usage would you then suggest this may be a good kit to try?

bike conversion kit

If so would you order the battery from Bms and if so which one?

Thanks again D8veh
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
No. Keep away from the Q128. It's gutless. My favourite kit is this one, but the speeds are awkward. The 201 rpm reaches about 18mph max at 36v, which is for me a bit slow, and the 328rpm about 29mph, which is a little too fast. Also, you never know exactly what speed motor they'll send you. I think that the 48v 328rpm version run at 36v might be about right, so you can ask them to swap the controller for a 36v one, but make sure you get the 48v motor which I believe is code 10. The code number is the speed rating. These motors are very robust and very good climbers.
Bafang BPM 36V500W Rear Driving Bike Conversion Kit - BMSBATTERY
This battery goes nicely with them and is pretty cheap and light, whilst being able to provide the power.
The chargers are not very reliable so get one of their cheapo $17 ones as a backup.
36V 20Ah Li-Ion Shrink Tube EBike Battery Pack - BMSBATTERY.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
It's the 36v battery that you need to slow the 48v 328 rpm motor down to about 250rpm. The final speed will then be about 20mph. - maybe 22 mph with the three-speed switch wires joined. You can't use a 36v battery with a 48v controller because of the low voltage control in the controller, so you need to change the controller for a 36v onje (KU123)
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
I've got a spare BPM Code 10 motor in black, one that BMS sent in error when I ordered a Code 8. Not been used, although I did build it up into a 20" wheel to test and found it was too slow a wind for the bike and battery combination I wanted to fit it too (20" wheel and 12S, so only around 20mph max).

The Code 10 (which is a ten turn wind) has a no load rpm of 315rpm, +/- 10rpm, when run at 36V, and a loaded rpm of 280 when run at 13 A under load (test data from Suzhou Bafang). The BMS Battery RPM numbers are off by a fair bit from reality, plus the guys you deal with there aren't at all technical, so often don't fully understand the attributes of the motors they sell. This is not uncommon with drop-shippers like this, I've found, others that use the same drop-shipping warehouse, like Greenbikekit are much the same.

I'm near Salisbury, BTW.
 

iain85

Pedelecer
Aug 5, 2010
187
4
Ok I understand about the battery but the link you put was for 36v motor. Should I get the same one with the 48v motor?

Thanks Jeramy, if they send me the wrong one il let you know.
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
The voltage and nominal wheel size that's given means nothing, the only important number is the "Code" number, in brackets at the end of the part number. This is, in reality, the number of turns around each pole piece inside the motor, and determines the motor rpm per volt. BMS Battery and other suppliers, like Greenbikekit, often get the numbers wrong, and quote apparent motor RPM figures that don't match reality that well.

Here is the data on motor winds for this motor, from the manufacturer:

SB BPM Data.JPG

You can work out the loaded motor rpm at any voltage from this, by dividing the loaded rpm figure by the test voltage (in this case 36V) and getting the loaded rpm per volt figure. Multiplying this by the battery voltage you want to use will give you the approximate wheel rpm. From this, and the wheel size, you can get a reasonable estimate of the bike likely top speed when lightly loaded.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Ok I understand about the battery but the link you put was for 36v motor. Should I get the same one with the 48v motor?

Thanks Jeramy, if they send me the wrong one il let you know.
Add this one to your basket after selecting the 328 rpm option and put the wheel size under the "data" tab at the bottom. Then you can add a message to your order to ask them to change the controller for a 36v one or buy the 36v controller as an additional item.
Bafang BPM 48V500W Rear Driving Bike Conversion Kit - BMSBATTERY

The last KU123 I got from them worked at both voltages by connecting/disconnecting jumper wires; however, they keep changing things so you never quite know what you'll get. Jeremy's right about the code numbers and speeds, but they never seem to know what they'll send you. The 48v 328rpm motor at 36v will be somewhere around a sensible speed.