Anti-tuning measures

[soundwave]

Bosch is clearly opposed to tuning e-bikes. The reasons are obvious. Not only that, security is compromised. Claus Fleischer is also convinced that the success of the pedelec is due to his bicycle status. Laid-down machines could jeopardize this status, so the new Bosch software for dealers and workshops from 2019 contains a program that detects change attempts.


The background is the relevant EN standard, which will be mandatory for drive manufacturers from the middle of next year. This states that the support must stop at 25 km / h, modifications must be identified and "suitable measures" are taken by the manufacturers.

https://ebike-news.de/mehr-e-power-braucht-das-land-bosch-ebike-neuheiten-2019/175780/

 

[Blunderbuss]

I understand most of what this article is about but the reference to the "Laid-Down machine" does not make sense - what is this?

Cold this end up being like the option of "mapping" cars, i believe that i could get another 40 bhp from my car, but i have no problem with how it is now.

 

[peter.c]

It is not just Bosch every manufacturer will be forced into this.
The last two Bafang 250 watt mid drives that I UK sourced have had a limit to the max current of 15amps ,any attempt to adjust makes a error code this is in the firmware.
The EN standard will attempt to make things tamper proof or if modified the liability removed from the manufacturer and passed on to the user as a by-product less warranty claims for replacement fried units.
I read a recent post on here by a trade member that mentions visits by trading standards

 

[Woosh]

I understand most of what this article is about but the reference to the "Laid-Down machine" does not make sense - what is this?

Aufgemotzte Maschinen: derestricted/ beefed up bikes.

 

[Blunderbuss]

Got it - thanks

As far as i can remember back eek it has always been a cat + mouse game, we used to have a local motor cycle shop that would de-restrict your moped (50cc) or motorbike (125cc) by sorting out the bits in the carburettor/exhaust etc; and if you wanted could do some magic to go even further (an oversized bore) to beef it up. So no matter what one party does to control something, there will emerge those can can get round it

 

[oyster]

The subject of derestricting is and will, inevitably, continue to be controversial. I think I have already clearly stated that in general, I am happy to live within the defined limits.

However I can certainly see some potentially good reasons for special considerations to apply. (No novelty claimed - I am sure they have already been thought of.)

Those who have physical limitations might find that current specifications preclude their use of ebikes. A little more power, use of full throttles, avoidance of pedalling might make ebikes significantly more accessible. So long as they don't actually make higher performance available.

Cargo bikes, and not just for deliveries but also for tradespeople carrying their tools and materials, could find enhanced power opens up the possibility of ebikes rather than vans. My imagination suggests the possibility of a self-powered trailer - which would allow an ordinary legal ebike to tow a trailer which increases the overall capacity without affecting the performance of the ebike itself.


It would be rather unfortunate if universal limits, blindly applied, meant that inventive solutions could not be achieved.

 

[peter.c]

The problem with regulations are they are left open to interpretation with terms like nominal and average so the new regs will attempt to close that loophole.
The pressure will be on the UK supplier to ensure compliance will they have to report tampering? .
The fact that product is legal in the US market does not help . 10mins on Youtube looking at e bikes paints the picture that we all want an electric motor bike that will do 50+mph where in reality that's not the image we need

 

[soundwave]

ebike shop sells and fits dongles so there fooked now, tho they did honer the warranty but martin is a dick head.

tho they have not stopped 1 motor yet from having the speed limit removed even if they potted the connectors on the motor you could cut the wires which would then void the warranty of course.

 

[tompaah]

So, updating firmware in the future would be risky for those already owning a derestricting device.

New firmware could lead to in the best case that the derestricting device stops working as intended. In worst case it could halt the engines operations until reset by a dealer and void warranty claims. We don't know yet.

New firmware can be not only aquired through update, but also when you get a new engine at warranty repair. In the later case you don't have a choice.

 

[peter.c]

This will result in a catch 22 situation service light comes on or develops a fault bike stops working so software update installed .The question is if the item no longer fit for purpose unrestricted use on your own private land could you demand a full refund

 

[Fordulike]

It is not just Bosch every manufacturer will be forced into this.
The last two Bafang 250 watt mid drives that I UK sourced have had a limit to the max current of 15amps ,any attempt to adjust makes a error code this is in the firmware.

I think you'll find this is just Bafang's way of minimizing warranty claims, rather than complying to any laws. As most of us know, the Chinese like to make their own rules.

 

[flecc]

The subject of derestricting is and will, inevitably, continue to be controversial. I think I have already clearly stated that in general, I am happy to live within the defined limits.

However I can certainly see some potentially good reasons for special considerations to apply. (No novelty claimed - I am sure they have already been thought of.)

Those who have physical limitations might find that current specifications preclude their use of ebikes. A little more power, use of full throttles, avoidance of pedalling might make ebikes significantly more accessible. So long as they don't actually make higher performance available.

Cargo bikes, and not just for deliveries but also for tradespeople carrying their tools and materials, could find enhanced power opens up the possibility of ebikes rather than vans. My imagination suggests the possibility of a self-powered trailer - which would allow an ordinary legal ebike to tow a trailer which increases the overall capacity without affecting the performance of the ebike itself.


It would be rather unfortunate if universal limits, blindly applied, meant that inventive solutions could not be achieved.

There is no problem with having more power, it only exists in the minds of the rule benders who want to have their cake and eat it.

To have more power, step up the the L1e-A assisted bicycle class, a 15.5 mph pedelec with a 1000 watt rating, four times the power of the usual pedelec. Ideal for cargo bikes and those with some disabilities.

Want more speed and even more power? Step up to the L1e-B moped class.

So what if they have to be registered, it's hardly a big deal.
.

 

[tompaah]

Want more speed and even more power? Step up to the L1e-B moped class.
So what if they have to be registered, it's hardly a big deal.

Most European countries forbid Speed Pedelecs on bicycle paths.
This is a real problem, if you live in the countryside or a suburb where the only two options to town is a busy 80 kmph road or a bicycle path.

Forcing bicyclists with Speed Pedelecs to share the road with heavy traffic is nuts, if there is a good bike path alongside.

Denmark has realized this and they have now allowed Speed Pedelecs on bike paths. Also, they removed the requirement to register it and you no longer need a moped helmet (bicycle helmet will do). This is the way forward for enabling longer commutes on e-bikes.

 

[flecc]

Most European countries forbid Speed Pedelecs on bicycle paths.
This is a real problem, if you live in the countryside or a suburb where the only two options to town is a busy 80 kmph road or a bicycle path.

Forcing bicyclists with Speed Pedelecs to share the road with heavy traffic is nuts, if there is a good bike path alongside.

Denmark has realized this and they have now allowed Speed Pedelecs on bike paths. Also, they removed the requirement to register it and you no longer need a moped helmet (bicycle helmet will do). This is the way forward for enabling longer commutes on e-bikes.

In an ideal world yes, but it doesn't always work out. When The Netherlands introduced the S class they did similar, but it introduced all sorts of problems so they had to do some back tracking.

Basically solving the mixed speed problem of S class bikes and motor traffic by having a new mixed speed problem on cycle paths of 28 mph and those often nearer 10 mph isn't a good answer.

S pedelecs are mopeds in all but name, having exactly the same speed capabilities as the usual moped class. So they either belong with the rest of the motor traffic like mopeds, or should be subject to a speed restriction when on cyclepaths.
.

 

[Trevormonty]

The idea behind 15mph limit was to stop ebikes weaving throw unassisted riders at speed. This 15mph was choosen as it about average speed for unassisted commuter.

If you open cycle paths up to ebikes capable of cruising at 25-30mph why not allow scooters on it. Annoying as limit is I've no problem with it on cycleways. Rather have cycleways and cutoff limit than no cycleways and no speed limits.

 

[tompaah]

S pedelecs are mopeds in all but name, having exactly the same speed capabilities as the usual moped class. So they either belong with the rest of the motor traffic like mopeds, or should be subject to a speed restriction when on cyclepaths.

Disagree here, petrol or electric mopeds accelerate quickly and holds 45 kmph effortlessly. Speed Pedelecs on the other hand, the Bosch ones I've tried and also own one of, are capable of 45 kmph but require a lot of effort after 35-38 kmph.

No, they don't belong with 80 kmph automobile traffic. Please go try one for yourself.

On my 32 km one way commute my average speed is .. 32 kmph. Nowhere near 45 kmph and not much more than a it non-assisted cyclist can keep.

Agree though that, as for automobile traffic, speed restrictions should apply for all vehicles where needed. This would include city paths or complex traffic environments. On good bike paths between suburbs or cities, set a higher restriction more suited to Speed Pedelecs.

 

[anotherkiwi]

It would be rather unfortunate if universal limits, blindly applied, meant that inventive solutions could not be achieved.

That is the modern nanny state - think about the start of the 20th century and the birth of various forms of transport, lots of that was done in sheds at the bottom of the garden.

If you open cycle paths up to ebikes capable of cruising at 25-30mph why not allow scooters on it.

Unfortunately where I live they (scooters/mopeds) aren't allowed but they just don't care and use them anyway...

 

[Woosh]

Unfortunately where I live they (scooters/mopeds) aren't allowed

Paris has 'Lime' e-scooters:

 

[anotherkiwi]

Last night out on my ride I crossed paths with a dweeb in a BMW: twice the legal speed (100 km/h instead of 50 km/h) in a corner using a lot more of my half of the road than I was comfortable with.

I hope I surprised him and his girlfriend screamed at him but I doubt it. Dweebs with tiny little peckers who drive BMWs with big exhaust pipes will remain diminished dweebs...

 

[anotherkiwi]

Paris has 'Lime' e-scooters:

Which are limited to 25 km/h and allowed on cycle paths or streets but not on footpaths. We are waiting on the first serious accident - little old lady vs scooter - on a footpath to see how that goes in court...