Making roads safe to drive as the highway code expects them isn't on the agenda for most road planning in London. I can think of countless turns where it is expected of motorists to turn left from the middle lane across a bus lane if they wish to go left. Impossible to pass box junctions that encourage rapid acceleration when a gap is seen on the other side. Not to mention roads that aren't correctly marked as it would make bus routes illegal, for example placing a road narrows sign would make driving a bus along that route an act of ignoring the road is marked as unsuitable and doing that each time a bus goes by isn't good for tfl so you won't find any narrow road signs in London.
Another cyclist dies in London
- Thread starter Hackney Andy
- Start date
I have cycled in Paris, the road layouts and cycle paths are just better as are the motorists and cyclists attitudes to transport, even the velib bikes are better than the boris bikes. They often have segregated paths for bikes and much wider roads, the reason for that is the huge 1 way systems so many roads in paris are 1 way and you just need to learn/know the roads you want. Then the real main roads like the Champs-Elysees are huge so 8 lanes wide, if we had that much space to play around with in London then we wouldn't have all these issues.
I second what Clockwise posted on this issue, and add that Paris is a small city. Excluding trucks in the long rush hours throughout the huge size of London simply isn't possible, particularly when they are already excluded throughout the night and the two rush hours are each actually over two hours long. The time left would make it impossible to service London's huge expanse (400 square miles), population and facilities.
May I throw my two pence worth please? Whilst being on the slippery slope to a bus pass, I would not say I was an experienced cyclist, but I have been riding bikes on and off for a long time. I have been watching a lot of vids on You tube of cyclists in London and around the country and one thing that sticks out is that the majority think they are in the Tour de France. There was one of a cyclist flying through the traffic in London weaving in and out of buses and trucks, with what appeared to be scant regard for any other road user or pedestrian. Eventually he was brought to heel by trying to squeeze between a bus and a car. I'm sure most of you will have seen the video, what I can't understand is why he needs to ride so fast. To be fair to the cyclist he did appear to be confident at what he was doing, but at the expense of the car driver that he rode into. The cyclist got up and rode off without any attention to the car he must have scratched. With me getting back into cycling, and at this time of year, I will not be following his example. Perhaps I'm getting old and the attraction of riding fast does not appeal to me anymore. Maybe some one could explain to me the kamikaze attitude of some cyclists.
Phil
Phil
It's a by-product of the way cycling has developed in Britain Phil. Post WW2 when there were almost no cars and public transport was in a sorry state, Britain cycled of necessity. Once add-on cycle motors appeared over a million eagerly took to them, and having tasted power and become a little more affluent, they lost no time in switching to scooters like the Vespa and Lambretta when they arrived in the latter 1950s. From there to the car was the obvious next step and in Britain utility cycling all but disappeared and even road sport cycling was at a low ebb with just a few enthusiasts sustaining it.
When the mountain bike arrived by the start of the 1980s, it immediately appealed to many who adopted that form of sport cycling, and that popularity also stimulated interest in road sport cycling and cycling clubs. That revival in cycling has continued to this day, but note that it's all sport biased, unlike in the cycling countries of Northern Europe where utility cycling never disappeared for various reasons.
Thus we have the marked contrast between the typical leisurely cycling gait in the Netherlands which is seen as merely another way of getting around, and the sporting-inclined speeds so typical of many British cyclists who are so much more performance conscious.
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Thank you for elucidating flecc, I wish we could import Amsterdam's ethos towards cycling. Maybe we are overpowered with the access we have of rash cycling with the advent of the camcorder and Internet. Twenty years ago we would have been blind to a lot of what goes on in the world today. In some ways the video footage is frightening and could put people off cycling. Having good road awareness will stand any cyclist in good stead when cycling, but you need experience to see potential risks, and the idiot that pops up now and then.
I would support the introduction of cycle insurance and a small road fee, just so that the self righteous motorist cannot say that cyclists do not contribute to their road use. My house content insurance covers me for up to £2m in public liability in the event of me damaging other road vehicles and or people. Maybe it would be good to see if other members would advocate for personal liability or third party insurance. OK, it may cost, but I would prefer that to damaging somebody's car and have to pay for it, which could prove costly.
I would support the introduction of cycle insurance and a small road fee, just so that the self righteous motorist cannot say that cyclists do not contribute to their road use. My house content insurance covers me for up to £2m in public liability in the event of me damaging other road vehicles and or people. Maybe it would be good to see if other members would advocate for personal liability or third party insurance. OK, it may cost, but I would prefer that to damaging somebody's car and have to pay for it, which could prove costly.
Past threads on this have provoked strong opposition, partly due to the bureaucracy necessary for the necessary registration, annual disc, number plate, and of course traceability of a cyclist.
A solution to simplify that would be to reduce it to a simple annual disc for a set small fee for all bikes, the scheme run by government and paying cycling insurance claims. That would have no need for tracing individual cyclists, so no registration or number plate necessary and no searching for and renewing a separate insurance.
Good idea flecc. I cycled the Leeds Liverpool Canal in 2005 and British Waterways gave me a small certificate, which I had to put my name on and display on the bike at all times, whilst on the canal tow path. This was free, but could this idea be transferred to the road and enforced by the Police? In effect you would buy a disc from a post office or bike shop and the revenue would be gathered by the Crown, in much the same way the VAT is collected. Although I can hear the protesters who would argue that we are already taxed enough and this scheme would just be another way of gathering funds, without the Government providing anything.
What was the theft rate of these discs?
Unless the disc is numbered and identified to a person, I cannot see the scheme working
Unless the disc is numbered and identified to a person, I cannot see the scheme working
An excellent summary of how we got where we are now, thanks.
Go to many bike retailer websites and you're expected to choose between 'Road' and 'MTB' - while what we would call a 'bicycle' is referred to as a 'hybrid'.
It's no such thing - it's a bicycle! The MTB and Road bike (and Cyclocross etc etc) are all specialisations of the bicycle.
When I came back into cycling I was utterly confused, as back in my day you bought a 'racer' if you wanted to go fast!
No idea Mike, but the cost was very low so little incentive to steal. With 2 million bikes sold each year plus all those already owned, relative to the very much smaller number of accidents and even smaller number carrying cost liabilities, the insurance element is minimal, so the charge should be equally so.
The new bus lanes in Brighton are placed on the nearside lane. By default any bus or taxi using these lanes will almost certainly be undertaking.
Undertaking regardless of the speed of traffic in the outside lane.
I therefore conclude that undertaking must be legal or they county council would not have installed the lanes.
Good luck trying to collect with a claim re cycling *outside* on the public highway with that private House *internal contents* insurance, but don't hold your breath.
As for the *tax disc* fetishists, I would remind you that you've already paid 10 times over for the excuse for infrastructure we have to contend with. Will your disc repel vehicles?!
The *relaxed* Netherlands bike riding is due to lack of worrying about 44tons of metal heading their way at 30mph plus! Cycling safely is the norm and everyone uses a cycle, so don't consider themselves cyclists.
As for the *tax disc* fetishists, I would remind you that you've already paid 10 times over for the excuse for infrastructure we have to contend with. Will your disc repel vehicles?!
The *relaxed* Netherlands bike riding is due to lack of worrying about 44tons of metal heading their way at 30mph plus! Cycling safely is the norm and everyone uses a cycle, so don't consider themselves cyclists.
I don't quite understand your post. Do you mean the bus/taxi lane is on the left of the cycle lane? If so, this is not uncommon, I have one nearby. Nowhere is it said buses or taxis have to overtake anyone to their right, so there's no automatic illegallity.
Regardless, the law is as I stated it, taken from one of the government's own sites, to be legal, drivers must ensure anyone they overtake on the left is aware of their intention and consents. Obviously impossible to achieve, this is typical of so much of our ill-conceived and poorly drafted modern law.
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This is not relevant though, none of the death accidents we are speaking of involve 30 mph trucks. They almost all involve trucks doing tight left turns at low speeds, and none that I've seen details of involve 44 ton artics, they've mostly been 6 and 8 wheel rigids of much lower weights.
Speed and weight have played no part, the factors have been high driver positions, blind spots, cyclists on the left in the truck's own lane or misunderstandings at the intersection of painted CS lanes with vehicle left turns.
I was on a bus in Manchester this morning and 1 cyclist drove towards the bus on the wrong side of a busy main road, as the bus was pulling in to the bus stop - and tried to cycle between the bus and the pavement. Two minutes later, as the bus was travelling through a green light, again just about to pull in to the bus stop on the left just past the lights, a cyclist ran the red light on the cross-roads from the left, and turned left again alongside the left of the bus. How he wasn't killed I don't know. I was in awe of the driver who managed to avoid both cyclists who seemed bent on suicide.
Forget the cyle lane for a minute.
A two lane road originally intended for all traffic. Now, the left lane (nearest the kerb) is now a bus and taxi lane. Other vehicles prohibited. You have many in London.
My point was about undertaking, not overtaking. Buses and taxis undertaking vehicles to their right all day long.
The system, roadway is designed for this and as such my conclusion is that it must be legal to undertake.
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