Another battery question-please can you help?

mountainsport

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Well well explained Alex, I really do not have any intentions of fiddling with my system and mucking things up. I tell you what Alex to give credit it's due I've had that battery for over 2yrs now and it is still giving me the good mileage so I can imagine what the Panasonic battery is capable of doing even though the price can be on the expensive side.

In regards to d8veh, maybe his last port of call was to concentrate mainly on the Strada's motor but with all due respect to him his timing was slightly out of sequence for me at the time.

MS
 
D

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Just checked it is actually a 25amp controller, I thought that you already had known it was a 500watt motor I used.
About a year ago I had put it up for sale on here. Now, has that answer prevented you from getting anymore confused ?

So, what is the point that you are getting at, now that all has been cleared up or not?

MS.
I find all this rather intriguing. The average 8Fun SWX motor can't take 25 amps at 36v. Does that mean that you have a BPM2 motor in your bike. Could you measure its diameter and let us know.
 

Artstu

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Samsung cells in a Bosch @103Alex1

[video=youtube;GVU9vEWL81U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVU9vEWL81U[/video]
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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1) The truth seems to be that no-one knows what exact cells are used in BionX batteries - or Kalkhoff/Bosch ones.

2) The e-zee example includes Chinese 20Ah batteries as a max - which by your own implications are presumably likely not really 20Ah if run at higher amps but more like a BionX 9,5Ah ?

3) Basically, I appreciate that big batteries and high speeds are not for you, flecc - - - - - - - - - - - please don't imply that this is necessarily reflective of a lack of customer appetite.
I'm not getting upset Alex, I just don't understand why you refuse to accept established facts, arguing against them with completely unfounded conjecture. To illustrate this I've taken above three main points you make as examples:

1) Wrong, we do know exactly what cells are used by BMZ in these batteries. They use cells only from the most respected manufacturers, currently from Samsung and Sony and mainly in 2250, 2800 and 3000mAh sizes according to the capacity required. That's the truth, not what you think it might be.

2) Why do you try to refute the established scientific fact of the Peukert effect that I've quoted for you? Capacity falls with increases in current draw, for all battery types, and I've explained the order of that loss with some test figures, showing how the test typical lithium battery claimed at it's most favourable capacity as 10Ah produces as little as 7Ah at high loads. The loss with lead acid battery types is even greater and can be 50%. That's why claimed capacities should ideally be the application achievable ones, not the theoretical best case ones for the cells. Sadly hardly any makers do this, only Panasonic and BionX for their own units to my knowledge, though I think Bosch could well be doing that also, judging from the performances achieved by users. As I've proven, Kalkhoff emphatically do not. I've no idea what eZee currently do in this respect since the feedback of ranges achieved isn't enough to judge from. In general Chinese lithium main market e-bike batteries use the best possible case figures as shown by what they are capable of.

3) You shouldn't personalise this, it's not a matter of what suits me. What I've stated as the needs of the main e-bike market is fact based on experience of that market for the whole of it's existence. I'm not implying this, I'm stating it as fact. As one market-knowledgeable supplier with many years experience of selling e-bikes commented in here once, this forum and its members doesn't in any way reflect the main market. It follows that opinions in here are not very likely to be pertinent to the main market. Most of that main market has the modest usage and needs I've already explained and suppliers are not stupid Alex. They would quickly supply what you need if that was a widespread need, either as standard or as an option. That the great majority don't proves the very small and unprofitable size of that market need.

Remember, all of this site's members, minority enthusiasts and others, represent no more than 6% of the UK market at most, and a minute fraction of 1% of the world market.
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trex

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I find all this rather intriguing. The average 8Fun SWX motor can't take 25 amps at 36v. Does that mean that you have a BPM2 motor in your bike. Could you measure its diameter and let us know.
Look at the casing and the cover screws. They don't match any 8-Fun model.
I used to have a Xiongda motor with similar casing. Mine was a 250W unit with steel gears. 6 screws on each side, serial number begins with SYZ on the freewheel side.

Picture of the motor from Strada website:

 
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mountainsport

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Feb 6, 2012
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I find all this rather intriguing. The average 8Fun SWX motor can't take 25 amps at 36v. Does that mean that you have a BPM2 motor in your bike. Could you measure its diameter and let us know.
Hi d8veh, just measured the diameter of the motor which is equal to 18cm. what are you think then d8veh SWX or BPM2? Please lets us know.

MS.
 
D

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Hi d8veh, just measured the diameter of the motor which is equal to 18cm. what are you think then d8veh SWX or BPM2? Please lets us know.

MS.
That's the same size as the BPM, but the one in the photo looks much smaller. It's over-lapped by a 160mm disc. I think it's this one, but there's no way it'll take 25 amps.
8FUN¡¡Motor
Any chance of a photo of yours - from both sides, ideally.
 

103Alex1

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Sep 29, 2012
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I'm not getting upset Alex, I just don't understand why you refuse to accept established facts, arguing against them with completely unfounded conjecture. To illustrate this I've taken above three main points you make as examples:

1) Wrong, we do know exactly what cells are used by BMZ in these batteries. They use cells only from the most respected manufacturers, currently from Samsung and Sony and mainly in 2250, 2800 and 3000mAh sizes according to the capacity required. That's the truth, not what you think it might be.

2) Why do you try to refute the established scientific fact of the Peukert effect that I've quoted for you? Capacity falls with increases in current draw, for all battery types, and I've explained the order of that loss with some test figures, showing how the test typical lithium battery claimed at it's most favourable capacity as 10Ah produces as little as 7Ah at high loads. The loss with lead acid battery types is even greater and can be 50%. That's why claimed capacities should ideally be the application achievable ones, not the theoretical best case ones for the cells. Sadly hardly any makers do this, only Panasonic and BionX for their own units to my knowledge, though I think Bosch could well be doing that also, judging from the performances achieved by users. As I've proven, Kalkhoff emphatically do not. I've no idea what eZee currently do in this respect since the feedback of ranges achieved isn't enough to judge from. In general Chinese lithium main market e-bike batteries use the best possible case figures as shown by what they are capable of.

3) You shouldn't personalise this, it's not a matter of what suits me. What I've stated as the needs of the main e-bike market is fact based on experience of that market for the whole of it's existence. I'm not implying this, I'm stating it as fact. As one market-knowledgeable supplier with many years experience of selling e-bikes commented in here once, this forum and its members doesn't in any way reflect the main market. It follows that opinions in here are not very likely to be pertinent to the main market. Most of that main market has the modest usage and needs I've already explained and suppliers are not stupid Alex. They would quickly supply what you need if that was a widespread need, either as standard or as an option. That the great majority don't proves the very small and unprofitable size of that market need.

Remember, all of this site's members, minority enthusiasts and others, represent no more than 6% of the UK market at most, and a minute fraction of 1% of the world market.
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OK so if I can get this straight then :

1) Your evidence of method of calculating capacity proves that Kalkhoff Impulse batteries are grossly and misleadingly overstated as to their capacities in use and this is not something Bosch, Panasonic or BionX follow suit with ? I think Kalkhoff ought to comment on that if this is true as it seems to be too much of a con if true. Perhaps Tim can provide some feedback ? Some accountability to customers would be appreciated.

2) I don't dispute the Peukert effect as a piece of science - but I am still puzzled by the reported ranges which suggest that if this is not the explanation for lower ranges reported with the "conservative" 10Ah setups then something else is. Any ideas ? Else the "happy coincidence" theory must remain unsolved... because I'm only going on what my experience of a Kalkhoff battery actually delivers. I'm asking questions and throwing out ideas because I'm not the scientist or expert here - but I have digested what's been reported and observed performance 1st hand and there are big performance discrepancies on max power ranges... and like it or not in the context of the battery facts you have established, there must be some reason for it. No reasons have been suggested, merely a bit of an attack on me for pointing the happy coincidence that max power ranges on derestricted bikes broadly correlate to claimed Ah ! If it's not down to the batteries then (question .. not rhetorical question) what is it down to ?

3) It's not personal I am merely observing that the mass market buys what the mass market is offered and it's not being offered high capacity batteries as standard. If it was it would likely buy ! The simple explanation is that if the same margins for marginal additional capacity were sought by retailers on the additional capacity the price of their bikes would soar to levels where demand is damaged and they only want to pay for the minimum they think they can get away with.

The US market is the only one which seems relevant where higher performance bikes are in point as there is a legal demand there. From a quick look at a US supplier of higher powered bikes, they are offering LiPo batteries including double-packs for double range - which suggests to me there is indeed a demand ... and they are beginning to meet it. Time will tell if my hunch is borne out here but I'll hazard a lot of people buying bikes with higher capabilities would use them over longer distances at higher power assist levels if a competitively priced battery was offered.

I am not suggesting that there should be a high supply of 40Ah batteries as standard on restricted 250W bikes. There are literally hundreds of Bosch / Impulse / Panasonic bikes before we look at Neos, Storcks and the like and in European restricted modes current battery offerings would likely satisfy most. But I bet there have been a few 2nd batteries bought by Bosch dongle-fitters... at enormous additional expense. Lifecycle have an off-road button and seem to have upped their supplied battery capacity accordingly to support its use. And so they should ! It's the EU speed-assist restrictions which are in effect keeping the price of battery technology high here. I'm just surprised to see BionX still stuck in the same space for a US market. Not very forward-looking at all - but at £1,050 for a 9,5Ah battery they're clearly cleaning up.

The point is you struggle to find any bikes at all bar the new lifecycle with over 20Ah as standard or even an option. I am merely observing that it is taking a very long time for these to come to market - but they are. I personally think that's a step in the right direction as it offers SOME choice in the ready made market and should be very attractive to a different type of buyer who may to date have not bothered entering the market at all.... and at last users of those bikes might finally begin to be able to use them over a decent range without feeling they have to turn down the power if they want to go a bit further. Hallelujah. May more follow.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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In a nutshell Alex;

Neither Kalkhoff or any of the other mainstream suppliers are behaving in a grossly misleading way. They are merely quoting the cell maker's stated capacity. In practice due to the Peukert effect this is only applicable in the ideal conditions at lowest power usage, for example a light rider in Eco mode in still air and on flat territory. This is, as I've already said, no different from car mpg figures and e-bike range figures, both often given as optimums. That is a suppliers right, since they do not and cannot determine the usage conditions they can state the best one, even though very few can ever achieve that in practice.

As you rightly observed the crank units like the Impulse etc are less greedy than hub motors in general so wouldn't suffer as big a loss as that 30% on the test hub motor I quoted, but I'd expect on a derestricted bike like yours when used to the full that the capacity loss would still be in the region of 20% due to the Peukert effect. What I think you may not be appreciating though is the corresponding gain. That is if you use your system to the maximum for greater speed, although the consumption rate will reduce the measured wattage issued from the cell maker's specified figure, the speed you gain in the reduced time taken for that consumption will increase the distance travelled in that time. Therefore there is a self-cancelling effect, less time at higher speed can produce the same distance so range is not a reliable indicator of what total wattage a battery issues. You need something like a Cycle Analyst to accurately measure that.

Now the battery size issue. There have long been some e-bike options on the market with much bigger batteries, so it's not true that customers have never had the option. Several companies have offered 16 to 20 Ah as options and the odd one or two as standard. The fact is that it hasn't been a popular option and that is why most e-bike companies don't bother. Most customers don't need very long ranges so don't want to pay for very large and heavier batteries. Just look at how very many makers offer 8Ah options, including Kalkhoff on the Impulse and other systems. They do that because the demand for less exists, so they satisfy it.

In fact smaller is better for many numbers of users for more then one reason than initial cost. Take your Impulse system for example, the two main batteries offered being 11Ah and 15Ah.

Kalkhoff-BMZ state the achievable lifetime capacity of the two are as follows:

11Ah = 348,000 Wh

15Ah = 259,000 Wh

Which they calculate into these achievable lifetime total distances:

11Ah = 77,000 km

15Ah = 58,000 km

That means 33% longer life from the smaller battery. So the buyer of the smaller one if that is all they need pays £100 less in the first instance, and if a 15Ah would have been at end of life at 3 years, the 11Ah would still have another year left in it at the same usage rate. Gain, the £100 plus a third of the 15Ah cost of almost £600 currently, total £300, very worthwhile.

Why the longer life of the smaller one? It uses exactly the same physically sized 18650 cells but 2.25Ah instead of 3Ah, so each with 25% less content density. That means reduces operating temperatures under load and during charging due to lower cell internal resistance, and it's higher temperatures that chemically age the cell content. As a bonus the smaller content cells have 40% less capacity loss annually than the larger content ones when in storage.

So for the many users who only need what the standard Impulse system delivers with the 11Ah battery, it's win-win all the way.

Alex, on the 1, 2 and 3 points I've been more than fair in fully answering each time, but I don't wish to carry on having to constantly repeat the same facts time and time again, so I hope you will understand when I say this post has contained my final words on those.

If you wish to discuss the size and life issue that I've just raised in the latter half of this post I'm happy for that discussion to continue.
.
 
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103Alex1

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Samsung cells in a Bosch @103Alex1

[video=youtube;GVU9vEWL81U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVU9vEWL81U[/video]
Very interesting. So that's 4 banks of 10 x 3.6V 2200mAh cells (nominal as opposed to "in use") making 316Wh versus claimed 288Wh. About 91% of calculation based on nominal cell capacities.

I assume Kalkhoff uses 3000mAh rather than 2200mAh cells in 5 banks of 10 making the claimed 100% of 540Wh nominal capacity. Using a "Bosch reduction" % based on above calculations (i.e. taking 91.139% of computed as comparable claimed) and applying to the Kalkhoff cells that would equate to a comparable 492Wh or 13.7Ah. Between these 2 systems that probably makes sense. It sounds like both Bosch and Kalkhoff are significantly overstating capacity in use if the BionX reduction of 3000 to 1600mAh per cell is realistic. What actual nominal mAh 18650 cells are in the BionX batteries or don't we know ? Reducing 2200 is very different from reducing 3000.

... and just for giggles what reduction % do Panasonic use in their claimed Wh ?

The Kalkhoff version uses 5 of those banks in parallel to get the capacity which is nominally 15 Ah.
 
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flecc

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... and just for giggles what reduction % do Panasonic use in their claimed Wh ?
The soft pouch cells in their batteries that I'm familiar with are not generally offered for sale as far as I can see. They appear to be designed for the application so that's why the capacity is stated for that. The ranges achieved seem to point to the claimed capacity being realistic, but see my note on the unreliability of this measuring method in my long reply to you which you may have just missed above.

What I can say is that the pouches are large for their stated 5Ah each and the whole case volume is used, so the probability is that the capacity claim is conservative.
 

103Alex1

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flecc - OK thank you - your (Edit:- 2nd to last) post finally provides some real insight. I think it would be extremely useful for manufacturers to provide figures for bikes in full power use in moderate terrain as well as these notional "ideal conditions" figures in Eco mode, which have next to no useful relevance. Of course the practical difficulties in getting consistency or comparability render this highly unlikely and so it's down to users testing the bikes and reporting their experiences. Terrain is always a variable but it gives something at least.

I'm not being ageist here but perhaps it's a generational thing with the sparing approach to power assist on bigger bikes and how this has been reflected in market demand... and of the younger ones, let's be honest few dedicated 'Gruber-assist' cyclists are buying bikes to run them at full power. I think it's just we don't see the 'other' market in Europe - younger people buying higher powered cycles for fun and who would likely be happy to tear them up for longer rides. For this category there are not many choices ... but I really do think the cost of the bigger batteries in the past has likely been prohibitive as much as the potential demand. The ones who really want to do it have probably rolled over and built their own.
 
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103Alex1

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The soft pouch cells in their batteries that I'm familiar with are not generally offered for sale as far as I can see. They appear to be designed for the application so that's why the capacity is stated for that. The ranges achieved seem to point to the claimed capacity being realistic, but see my note on the unreliability of this measuring method in my long reply to you which you may have just missed above.

What I can say is that the pouches are large for their stated 5Ah each and the whole case volume is used, so the probability is that the capacity claim is conservative.
Possibly. Very difficult to say with any certainty though, presumably. Any ideas on the BionX as above ?
 

flecc

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No, I don't know for the BionX Alex. However, given that they obviously use the generous approach of 6 parallel banks where others mostly use 5 and the cost appears no object, it's likely that BMZ have used the optimum for the job. After all, BionX are a very valuable customer for them, ten years or more of continuous supply, there aren't many clients like that so they'll want to look after them.

The optimum cell capacity choice is a difficult issue though as my last long answer shows, it depends on so many factors, cell density, required life, required range, available physical volume, current drain rates, though at least for BionX cost sensitivity isn't an issue.
 

flecc

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I think it's just we don't see the 'other' market in Europe - younger people buying higher powered cycles for fun and who would likely be happy to tear them up for longer rides. For this category there are not many choices ...
It doesn't stand a chance Alex, the EU is strictly governed by the no-throttle pedelec 250 watt law. In the only exception, Germany, the higher speed and power options are only those strictly specified in law and they have bureaucratic additions as well, like number plates and insurance.

The unregulated and often home-created performance bikes that exist in Britain and parts of the USA could never exist in mainland Europe, there's too much general knowledge in that big market there about what a pedelec has to be there.
 

103Alex1

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No, I don't know for the BionX Alex. However, given that they obviously use the generous approach of 6 parallel banks where others mostly use 5 and the cost appears no object, it's likely that BMZ have used the optimum for the job. After all, BionX are a very valuable customer for them, ten years or more of continuous supply, there aren't many clients like that so they'll want to look after them.
You would certainly hope so ... but ... as we've seen with luxury cars like Mercedes, Audi etc. you don't always get what you pay for in terms of component quality/actual delivered spec. The days of longevity and reliability being the watchwords of design are long gone in favour of obsolescence and replacement at all levels. After all, price to BionX (or any other manufacturer) doesn't necessarily translate into price to customer and in the end margins are profit.

On the achievable lifetime distance thing the explanation above is interesting, however in practice likely rather academic since I'm pretty sure my bike will have reached the end of its useful life long before 259,000Wh have been consumed ! The battery lives are way longer than I'm happy to accept and capacities far lower to support continued high power usage. It seems the best thing to do in the end is to have your own battery built and build your own bike. You simply have to live with the fact it's converted rather than designed from the frame up - and most likely a hub motor rather thank crank - but in the end at least you can get your high performance over distance. Hubs are certainly what even the US market seems to have gone with.

The unregulated and often home-created performance bikes that exist in Britain and parts of the USA could never exist in mainland Europe, there's too much general knowledge in that big market there about what a pedelec has to be there.
Oh I think there are quite a few kicking around Spain unchallenged at the very least ;)
 
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flecc

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Oh I think there are quite a few kicking around Spain unchallenged at the very least ;)
True, but that supports what I meant, that where the pedelec market is at it's highest saturation such as the Netherlands and Germany, the knowledge of what they are, legally as well, is too widespread for anyone to get away the scale of illegality that can occur here in the UK or in the USA.

Spain in comparison is still a very undeveloped e-bike market. They were the last in the main Europe area to start taking to them with BH their sole home maker venturing into producing them very late. So for the moment they are comparable to the UK and the USA in this respect.
 

cwah

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In france, you can also ride an electric bike at 30mph next to the cop, they won't have a clue :cool: